didn't put in enough or way too much?

[M2d]

reposted from the wrong forum

Mirage 20-40. game had started about an hour and a half ago and is now down to three handed (second game). just went off the must move status. it started as a bunch of regulars and me. they're pretty abc-ish and haven't adjusted much to the short game. they've opened up their pre-flop hands a bit, but they're still a bit weak (in general) post flop.

I'm on the SB. UTG/button open raises, I have JJ.

Now, from what I've already seen, UTG may or may not have a real hand. he's probably the more innovative of the other two. BB is tight and solid, but I'm pretty sure he'll call if he likes it, but fold if he doesn't, irregardless of the action in front of him.

I call, BB calls.

flop is 3-4-9 (I think...something like that). Checked to the raiser and he bets. I call and the BB mucks.

turn is an 8. checked to the raiser and I raise. he calls.

river is a 4. I bet and get raised. I think for a second and call.


results and my thinking to follow.

[M2d]

Preflop:
I'm a big proponent of not always jamming it preflop in short games. I think this allows me to limp a bit more with speculative hands and adds some deception to my big hands. here, I favored smooth calling because the BB was either coming or not. whether I re-popped it or not didn't matter in clearing the field. Also, from what I'd seen (I'd only played with these guys for an hour and a half, remember), the raiser was going to bet it the whole way anyway. let him lead as long as needed and raise it when it was most beneficial to me, I think.

Flop: good flop for my hand. I can bet out, check-call or check-raise. betting out is nice, as it gets money in the pot, but I can do better than this. UTG/B will bet if checked to. BB will check unless he has top pair (as far as I can tell based on his previous shorthanded play-he didn't bet underpairs for value at all, and mucked way too much). I decided to check-call. by doing this, the chips go in anyway, and I get a better idea of where the BB is.

turn:
because the SB mucked the flop, I decided to check raise here. if he called, I may have just check called to not shut him out. when it's not re-raised, I have to figure myself for the best hand.

River. bet out and get raised. can the UTG/B raise with: overpair to mine? yes. underpair to mine, but overpair to the board? yes. a set, now full? yes, trips? yes. naked bluff? yes. easy call, I think.

results:
he turns over K4 and my hand is no good.

[Nightwish]

I would definitely 3-bet preflop. You almost certainly have the best hand and I don't understand why you'd want to slowplay with this particular hand.

Also, why not check-raise the flop? You got a nice flop, you don't want overcards to be sticking around and going for a turn check-raise attempt runs the risk of it being checked around.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
I would definitely 3-bet preflop. You almost certainly have the best hand and I don't understand why you'd want to slowplay with this particular hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't really a slow play. more of a wait and see what happens approach

[ QUOTE ]
Also, why not check-raise the flop? You got a nice flop, you don't want overcards to be sticking around and going for a turn check-raise attempt runs the risk of it being checked around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pretty sure the raiser was betting again if checked to. I was also pretty sure that BB was not sticking around if he didn't make a pair.

[skipc]

it's hard to say how he would have played a bet on the flop instead of a check. the way you played gave maximum value until the river card. if you lead on the flop and turn, you are one big bet short, so i like the way you played the hand, just not the results. i wish there was more discussion
on playing short handed games. i think these are harder than full games sometimes.

good luck
skip

[skp]

In many ways, your hand may seem stronger to him when you raise on the flop as opposed to preflop. And here, you do have a strong preflop hand so postflop, you don't want him to read you as strong i.e. strong could mean just bottom pair.

Okay, I didn't explain that well. What I mean is that when it is shorthanded, even bottom pair might be a "strong" hand postflop. He may slow down with say something like a big Ace if you checkraise the flop after having smoothcalled preflop. But if you 3 bet preflop, he may well put you on a strong ace and play his strong Ace hard postflop when 3 rags show up (as they did here).

But I do hear your point about smoothcalling now and then with big hands in order to allow you to smoothcall with not so big mitts later on.

[M2d]

Not necessarily for this particular hand, but in general, I'm not that into making overcards fold against me too soon. probably a greedy character flaw, but I want them to get to a point where they have to make a decision folding or continuing, while having already put in a significant amount of money. generally, this is the turn.

I think, if I have a hand and he's bluffing or betting no pair for value, I can rely on a bet on the flop and either another flop bet (checkraise) or a turn bet (turn checkraise) from him before he lets go. The second option, which I usually (but not always) go to gives me an extra small bet before I get him to lay down.

Another advantage of this is that it lets the board play out before I make a big move. Since it's assumed that he's calling my flop bet out or my flop checkraise no matter what (it usually is), I still have to fade the turn card before I can get him to let go completely. if the turn card is scary enough, I can shut it down and not risk the extra half bet.

A third benefit I get from playing this way is that I often win on the turn and don't have to show my hand. This also lets me steal more liberally since they rarely see me playing funky cards.

in this particular case, I want the raiser pushing when he should be pulling. I had a short discussion with the PFR after the hand, when the game broke. we agreed that, the way the hand played out, we both thought we had the best hand the whole way through (for me, most of the way through for good reason). Shorthanded, middle pair-big kicker is a pretty strong hand, and my smooth calling the flop didn't do much to change this read. the turn raise was tricky for him, but there were enough hands that I would semi-bluff with here combined with enough hands that he could catch against that a call was pretty automatic for him. I just got unlucky.

[Kooch]

First post here, but I've played the 10-20 & 20-40 at the Mirage, and have had similar experiences SH late at night (or early morning). I like the smooth call PF, but on the flop, I'd hit him with a raise then, 1. to define his hand and take control, or 2. hopefully have him lay it down if he was drawing to overcards and trying to just show strength, happily drag a decent pot. AA, KK, maybe even QQ, I'd wait until turn, but I don't feel that safe letting him draw (assuming he raised, even 3 handed, with at least one card over J) vs. JJ here. Bad beat on river for you, but as an aside, what do you do if A,K, or Q hits turn here? I'd rather not have to make that decision here with Jacks.

Kooch.