QQ turn and river play

MHarris · #1 10-28-2004, 10:44 AM

MP1 is slightly LAG, the other villains in this hand are loose like......never mind. They're very loose.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 raises, Hero calls, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.
I doubt MP1 is checking an A here, unless he wants to check-raise again. I'm figuring he C/R'd a draw here, and the T may have completed it. If it didn't (maybe MP1 was on a gutshot with T7 or T9), maybe checking will induce a river bluff.

River: (9.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, CO calls, BB folds.
I gave some thought to raising here, but I wasn't sure that MP1 would call with a worse hand or that it would fold a crappy ace from one of the players behind me.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Fat Nicky · #2 10-28-2004, 11:28 AM

You played the hand logically. No reason to bet the turn after getting raised on the flop with an overcard to your pair on board. Also, It think you need to call the river after it's checked through on the turn, you'll be shown A-rag plenty alot here, but I think you're good 1 time out of 10 or 11 to make this call correct.

crockett · #3 10-28-2004, 11:44 AM

If the river hadn't paired the board I think this would have been a good place for a river raise. I think your chance of getting 3-bet is slim. You might fold out BB or CO holding a weak A.

The board paired so if they do have a weak A then their kicker just improved to a T and they will most likely realize this and not fold. I think you just have to call down.

slaman · #4 10-28-2004, 12:19 PM

Out of curiousity - none of you would have folded after the raise on the flop?

Can I understand the logic in calling the raise? Aren't the odds extremely high that someone out there has an Ace?

Noodles · #5 10-28-2004, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No reason to bet the turn after getting raised on the flop with an overcard to your pair on board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm anyone think that a turn bet might be ok after the flop raiser checks, like why did he check?
its a weird play as with the non drawy flop it must mean an ace surely,so why did he check the turn?
was he afraid of better aces out there?

MHarris · #6 10-28-2004, 01:53 PM

It didn't seem like a good idea to value bet 2nd pair into 3 players, one of whom just C/R'd me. With the T falling, I had to believe that even if my opponent hasn't yet completed his draw, I could very well get check-raised again. In this scenario, I think I'd rather have invested one bet to see a showdown against a busted draw than 3 to see a better made hand.

ecooke · #7 10-28-2004, 02:04 PM

Pretty scared of that A, eh?

First off, let's look at the odds. If you're behind someone with an A then you're a lousy 22.5:1 dog to hit trips on the turn. With this in mind if you're against an A then it's time to drop. However, since you called MP1's flop raise (ultimately getting 1:19 on the call - so 1:9.5 going into the Turn) plan to bet the Turn with the intention of folding to a second raise. It looks like you’re trying to get to the river with as few bets as possible and that is weak tight thinking.

ecooke · #8 10-28-2004, 02:05 PM

Maybe logical Nicky, but not correct.

MHarris · #9 10-28-2004, 02:25 PM

Making the flop call getting 19:1 is a no-brainer when you consider the implied odds of hitting a Q, not to mention the possibility that I'm still best here.
Bet the turn? Why? How much value is there in this bet? There is some chance I'm best, but there's an overcard to my pair on what is otherwise a somewhat coordinated board. If I check the turn, MP1 would almost surely bet the river with a busted draw, and hands like T9, 98, and JJ that I beat will probably overcall. If I AM beat, I'm seeing a showdown for one BB, instead of throwing one away on the turn in the event of getting C/R'd. I seem to get C/R'd more often on multiple streets when I make a value bet of this nature.

Noodles · #10 10-28-2004, 04:36 PM

not mine but i think it is pretty interesting as what to do on the turn.
MHHarris and ecooke both make good points,but i am now leaning towards checking down as Harris did,
what do others think?