Another "You make the call" post

[bigfishead]

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Actual hand from Canterbury, reconstructed to the best of my memory.

Board reads K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Seat one is EP and bets. Seat 5 raises, seat 10 folds, Seat 1 re-raises immediately in turn as the dealer scoops up his cards, which were unprotected, and places them on top of the deck. Both the dealer and the player realize this immediately. The dealer calls over the floor and explains his error, even showing that he has not moved his hand off Seat 1's cards. Seat 1 politely, but clearly with some distress, pleads for his cards to be returned. The dealer tells the floor he is certain he has the player's cards on top of the deck, and the player offers to tell the floor what they are exactly, so he can verify. Two players at the table say they saw the action by the dealer and agree. Seat 5 says shrugs, indicating he will abide by the floor without complaint.

Do you pull the cards out of the muck?

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1. EVRYONE knows they are his cards, no opposition from other player, whom it appears is willing to accept the outcome as it was intended to be.

2. Floor has aknowledged this info. Dealer has made error(tho player didnt have chips covered also.).

3. able to verify exact cards by rank and suit according to location.

now...I have seen this. On one such occasion the floor asked the players if they would agree to a full chop.

On another occasion the cards were verified and the other player wanted to see to it the pot was awarded the player with the best hand. Even if that meant he lost he was ok with it because he didnt want to let 1 pot cost him EV for the nite or be known as one "taking advantage of a situation".

It does depend too on players attitudes sometimes. Yes...the HUMAN part of the game, even a floor person can just stick to the hard line when it is one of the known local jerks. A very good reason to treat your poker pesonnel well.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Assume I'm working the floor.

Since in this case it appears the cards are discernible I'd pull the cards out of the muck. However, it is important to use good technique. I'd hand seat 1 a pen and post-it note and have him write down the two cards. I'd explain to the table that his hand is live only if what is written down exactly matches what is retrieved. Although I'd check it first (in case they don't match) after the action is complete I'd make sure the retrieved hand is isolated/protected and shown down (even if not called) and compare it with what was written down so everyone can see justice was done.

I don't like it when in similar situations the player merely whispers the hand in the floor's ear and the floor verifies the retrievable hand. A written match up eliminates reasonable possibility of collusion between player and floor.

The general principle is clearly discernible cards are retrievable if retrieving them doesn't harm the action and it is in the best interest of the game. IMO this case qualifies.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
The player gets back his cards back. This is most likely a player new to poker, exactly who the casino wants playing. A player has a responsibility to protect his hand menaing he woudl have no recource if the cards were in the muck (on or against the muck is not in the muck).

Randy Refeld

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Good point Randy. Note the rules in Los Angeles allow for this sort of thing.

~ Rick

[Dharzhak]

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Seat four should shut the hell up already.

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Absolutely agreed. While the person ruled against certainly has a right to be upset about it, the other players have no standing and shouldn't exasperate the situation further.

The thing that bothers me is that this situation has become *way* too common lately. Dealers in the Detroit area, in an effort to move the game along, have been getting way too sloppy and mucking cards before getting a clear signal from a player that he's folding or verifying that a hand is not the winning one.

I'm not sure what the remedy is, but I doubt calling out the dealer at the table is the right approach, esp. if you're a regular. I suppose quietly discussing it with the floor manager may be warranted, esp. if a dealer is becoming particularly problematic.

Regards,
Noal

[slavic]

I like the ruling but, and this is important:

"Put a chip on your cards!"

[steamboatin]

Putting a chip on top of your cards to protect your hand (like you should be doing anyway) would solve all of these problems.

Howard Lederer or any of the other TV guys never leave their cards unprotected laying around out in the middle, maybe we now understand why.

[Holm Fries]

[ QUOTE ]
The floor overrode "mucked is mucked" and returned the players hand to him, sight unseen.

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Yeah, unfortunately I see this at Canterbury way too often. I was in a 100+10 tourney once down to 13 (we are 7 handed) players from 120. UTG (UTG+1's mom, no joke) mucks, UTG +1 asks mom what to do and flashes her his cards. She says raise (limit tourney, but this represents about 3/4 of his stack). Folded to the BB who calls and loses to 22 in a showdown. Bystander goes nuts. Floor chooses not to intervene, not really giving a reason why (although I assume because the hand was done). BB is knocked out and hovers over the table complaining. Mom and son go on to finish in the money.

HF

[Dharzhak]

[ QUOTE ]
Putting a chip on top of your cards to protect your hand (like you should be doing anyway) would solve all of these problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I absolutely agree. I protect my cards like they're my paycheck...and in a sense, they are.

The problem is that the non-regulars often aren't aware that they need to protect their cards. When something like this happens, the pleasant, light hearted mood that I work hard to keep the table in (as relaxed tourists are definitely +EV), evaporates and some of the unhappy players either tighten up or leave. Either way, it's just not good and dealers need to be more careful.

As such, I think it's important to not only tip the dealers appropriately, but verbally thank them for doing their job well.

Regards,
Noal

[TJSWAN]

I'd have to agree with the ruling. This is a perfect example of why I don't like seat one. Being right next to the muck pile it sometimes seems like a chip isn't even enough to protect your hand.

BTW, all they give you is a damn hat?!??!!?

Out here in sunny CA you'll get at least $500 ( or more ) for a royal at either Artichoke Joe's or Lucky Chances.

Oh, and I bring a chip from a different out of state casino so it doesn't get mistakenly bet/put into the pot.

Tim

[DimensionPresident]

I cringe every time I see someone put the blame on the player for a dealer's mistake.

Is it too much to expect of a dealer to pull his head out of his ass every now and then and pay attention to what's going on?

The people who take the hard line stance on the rule of "once the cards hit the muck, they're dead... no exeptions!" even when it's clearly the dealers fault aren't being realistic.

Ponder this situation: You're the perfect player. You chip your cards every hand. Out of nowhere, a dealer takes your cards (despite the chip being on top of it), and throws them into the muck. What do you do then? What if it's a million dollar hand and you were sitting on the nuts? OOPS! SORRY! Hand hit the muck, it's dead.

If you're all so cut and dry with this rule, and don't want to make the dealers take any responsibility for their own actions, then the only thing that's left is to point a loaded 9MM at the dealers head at all times and pull the trigger the second he gets near your cards when you don't want him to.

You people act like a little chip on your cards is going to prevent a mistake 100% of the time. I am going to guess that throughout the course of time there's been more than one hand accidently mucked that had a chip on it. And when that happens, it's the dealer's / casino's responsibility to make ammends. If not in the hand itself, then out of their own pockets.