Two turn decisions -- wimpy or smart?

[spider]

Not sure if these are interesting or not, but comments appreciated, especially if anyone thinks I should've bet the turn in either case. Flop decision in hand #2 may also be debatable.

---

Hand #1 -- Button and BB are both very loose (VP$IP > 50%). BB is OK post-flop, button is pretty bad.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="RED">Hero raises</font>, MP folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="RED">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="RED">Button bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (6.70 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="RED">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.70 BB

---

Hand #2 -- MP is loose and pretty aggressive post-flop. CO is very loose and pretty passive. Main thing I am wondering about is turn decision, knowing he will auto-bet river when I check turn.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="RED">MP bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="RED">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.20 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="RED">MP bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

[Scotch78]

Hand 1 is debatable, probably a matter of personal preference. Hand 2 looks good to me, I think inducing a bluff was your best play on that one.

Scott

[MatrixMunki]

1) that just checking is just fine, good play

2) i would definatley bet the turn, u still have so many outs! and now you even have a pair, bet it up and then check river

[runa]

Hand 1: A slowplayed J or picked up an A on the turn? I'd probably just call down since you want to showdown but don't like being 3-bet.

Hand 2: I believe he flopped the sucker end of the str8 and is now worried about the J. He still has the flush draw IF behind, but I would probably bet the turn anyway, call a raise, and call the river unimproved based on player reads. If he's really straightforward and raises the turn, bets the river I'd lean towards folding but it would take a really good read to make that fold.

[Peter_rus]

I bet turn both hands.

1. He is much more likely to catch 4 or flush draw than jack so if he able "not to auto-bluff when it's checked to him" and take a free card with draw you're missing value.

2. I bet it here and call the rest of hand if raised. Against very agressive players able to c/r two pairs, set, 6 or simply a pair with some kind of redraw (QTo for eg) putting you always on hands he could beat i would 3-bet turn here as it's likely im still ahead or split right now - i have enough outs to redraw. He will also call you here with all sorts of trash as when the straight draw looks completed on a turn you still *could have missing* flash draw and as well can have pair against which he can have odds.

[J.R.]

I think both checks are pretty bad, especially in Hand 1 against 2 loose players who can presumably call with a number of hands, even more so with the flush draw on the flop and a number of broadway gutshot combinations on the turn.

In Hand 2 you can't live in fear of a J. Top Pair (maybe even middle pair) or 2 pair will call down (and may even riase if he is really aggressive), you have a flush draw so have outs if behind, are free-rolling v another 6 and a 6 or J ion the river counterfits your hand.

[Grisgra]

Peter, what do you do if he raises the turn in hand #1? Suppose he's an unknown.

I probably call it down (to make him more a "known"), but I think that in general I fold. Anyone calling a paired flop and then raising that turn even after you've raised pf is *probably* beating you. He could have an ace, admittedly, but I dunno.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably call it down (to make him more a "known

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what i plan to do. But im still incline to occasionally call this down for sacrifice even against known player to prevent him to make moves on me. My additional 2 or maybe even 5 outs (in case he has 44) save me from losing too much in these spots.

[spider]

Thanks to everyone for the comments, the results:

Hand #1 -- He had J2s (I said he was loose!) and HHIG. I'm still a bit undecided here. My thinking was that there weren't enough worse hands that would call here. I thought the ace would scare off many of the weaker calling hands (like a 4 or small pockets).

And to give a counter-example, I would have bet if the turn had been a ten since I think the weaker hands will stick around and call.

Hand #2 -- he had A3o and MHIG. At the time, I was not so much afraid of a jack as I was that opponent would fold the turn to such a scary board, whereas he would gladly bet the river with nothing if I checked turn.

But I think a couple of the responses here explain very well why it would be better to bet the turn and I agree now.