AA on BB - Page 2

GrunchCan · #11 10-20-2004, 11:19 AM

in a multiway pot, its a crime not to cap.

Sorry for asking what is likely an elementary question, but why? I presume the need to protect my hand outweighs the need to extract maximum value. Is that correct?

My reads on my 2 opponents were very solid. I knew for certian that if I capped PF and led the flop, they would just call if they didn't have the nuts. Conversely, if I just called PF and checked the flop, I knew MP1 would bet and MP2 would at least call, possibly raise depending on his holding. So in this case, I believe my play extracted the maximum value. Am I right, and do I still need to protect-cap PF even still?

GrunchCan · #12 10-20-2004, 11:28 AM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

I wasn't sure what to do, so I defaulted to my standard play: agression. I know that this is a big, general leak in my play, and that's really why I posted this hand. I wanted to see if this hand is an example of my over-agression leaks. Anybody believe that it's not? Anybody want to just let me have it?

Turn: (10.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (22.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises This raise is to put MP1 all-in, MP1 calls $1.25 (All-In), MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 28.37 BB
Main Pot: 27.62 BB, between MP1, MP2 and Hero. > Pot won by MP1 (27.62 BB).
Pot 2: 0.75 BB, between MP2 and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (0.75 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad Ac (two pair, aces and tens).
MP1 has Td Kc (full house, tens full of twos).
MP2 has Qd Qc (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: MP1 wins 27.62 BB. Hero wins 0.75 BB.

Quercus · #13 10-20-2004, 11:45 AM

I like how MP1 called two cold preflop with KTo. Good job!

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Anybody want to just let me have it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the 3bet on the turn was over aggressive. Bad poker player, bad! No biscuit!

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I wasn't sure what to do, so I defaulted to my standard play: agression.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aggression with a reason is good. Aggression because you are confused is bad.

If you don't know why you are betting or raising, fold and spend the time in between hands figuring out what the correct play was.

GrunchCan · #14 10-20-2004, 11:57 AM

Bad poker player, bad! No biscuit!

<<whimper>>

I'm sure that hurt you more than it hurt me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But seriously now, what have I learned here?

If I'm certian I'm beat, and agression won't force a steal, and pot size/pot odds say 'play' but I have no equity edge, I should call down? Is that the lesson?

What if somehow in this example I had to call 2 cold on the river, an nobody was all-in. Do I still call down?

Quercus · #15 10-20-2004, 12:08 PM

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If I'm certian I'm beat, and agression won't force a steal, and pot size/pot odds say 'play' but I have no equity edge, I should call down? Is that the lesson?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, under those circumstances you fold. But, being certain in poker is hard. The pot is large enough that the combination of calling down + maybe spiking the A make it worthwhile.

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What if somehow in this example I had to call 2 cold on the river, an nobody was all-in. Do I still call down?

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Depends on the size of the pot. If its 22+ BB to me to call two, I might choke on it and call it. But, if its the 15 or so BB that it should have been and the board is double paired, and I'm pretty darn sure a T is out there, I don't think I'm getting good odds to call.

ggano · #16 10-20-2004, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
in a multiway pot, its a crime not to cap.

Sorry for asking what is likely an elementary question, but why? I presume the need to protect my hand outweighs the need to extract maximum value. Is that correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, other way around. Capping will likely extract the maximum value. It has nothing to do with protecting your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
My reads on my 2 opponents were very solid. I knew for certian that if I capped PF and led the flop, they would just call if they didn't have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) But they might fold too. If the flop misses UTG or MP1 you might not get any more bets out of them. OTOH if the flop hits them well they won't fold. By letting them see the flop cheaply, you're letting them stay in when they have a good hand and fold when they don't. If you cap it PF you get more money from them before they know.

(2) There's that word "certain" again. But we all know that reads can never, ever be certain. Maybe 80% at best. There's one thing you can know for certain, however, and that's if you cap and they call, they're putting in more money with a worse hand than yours. Take advantage of that.

wabe · #17 10-20-2004, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in a multiway pot, its a crime not to cap.

Sorry for asking what is likely an elementary question, but why? I presume the need to protect my hand outweighs the need to extract maximum value. Is that correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, other way around. Capping will likely extract the maximum value. It has nothing to do with protecting your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any such thing as protecting your hand preflop? I thought the idea of raising preflop is to get money in the pot since you have the best hand.

Ajax410 · #18 10-20-2004, 01:44 PM

I don't think you need to worry about "protecting" AA preflop. In most preflop encounters, I think you're more concerned with extracting value. If your hand needs protection before you even see the flop, I would assume that it's probably a good idea to lay it down.

That having been said, I think the advice offered in this thread is good. Don't get tricky with aces. The fact is, it's a great hand, players at limits up to 3/6 don't really play based on reads, and the more money that goes in the more money you end up with. Do rockets lose? Yes. Do rockets lose you money? No. So, when you're lucky enough to see these guys, raise until its apparent that you might be behind.

Ajax