PreFlop Raise with QQ

[wacki]

I have QQ and I am in the button against 5 players. How much should I raise? 2x the BB? 3x?

It was 5 way and everyone limped. Loose passive competition.

[ddubois]

Some people say the conventional raise amount is (3 plus the number of limpers) times the BB, which would be a fairly huge 8xBB here. My gut feeling is that less would be acceptable, but that 3xBB would be far too small. However, I'm actually not sure as to the rationale behind this convention. What exactly is the logic and/or math that supports raising an amount based on the number of limpers? Are we trying to discourage callers? Make theoritical profit pre-flop with calls? Give poor implied odds? Will the impact of raising so much be to narrow the field down to only the other really good hands, like AK/AA/KK, but fold the hands we'd like to play with, like A4o, T9s and KQo? Just curious.

[kayaker]

If I'm the first raiser, I always bet the same amount, 5xBB. Others prefer 3x or 4x, some even like 6x. And you also have the (3+Limpers)xBB players. The important thing is to be consistent. Find a number you like, and stick with it.

[Ghazban]

I'm not a fan of the (3+#limpers)xBB raise once there are more than 3 limpers. Generally, I raise 4xBB if I'm first in but rarely do I go more than 6x (of course, this is somewhat table dependent).

In general, you want your raise sizes to be fairly consistent so your opponents cannot determine the strength of your hand based on your raise size. If you raise too much too often, you'll get the blinds/limps most of the time but not often enough to make up for the time when you are called and get beaten. If you raise too little, you'll never pick up the blinds/limps and will often get so many callers that somebody will outflop you. You need to find a raise size that is somewhere in the middle and go with that. This will be heavily dependent on your table image and the texture of the table. As an extreme example, say you've got a guy who will call you with any two cards regardless of your raise size. Assuming deep enough stacks with respect to blind sizes, you could profitably fold everything but AA and move in with AA.

[schwza]

i open for 4xbb and if there's anyone in the pot i make it 5xbb. couldn't give you any ironclad reasoning, but that's what i've settled on.

[rickr]

I'll give you some reasoning. Just think of yourself. What hands will you limp in with? Will you call a raise with it? You want your raises to be consistant. If not people can read your holdings by your bet. Say the BB is .5 and I've limped in with 89s. If you raise 2x BB I'm going to call. I'm already invested and it's only .50 more to go. The looser the table, the higher the raise it takes to get people to fold with total junk. I normally make a raise of 4 to 5 x BB standard. Lower than that and it's a bad beat story waiting to happen. Higher than that and you drive out the legit hands that would stay. Plus, If you raise every hand the same as suggested, but make it say 8x BB standard, you will lose money, guaranteed. I just wait people like that out till I get a premium hand. When they bet 8x, I reraise them back. Tough fold preflop for them so they call or go all-in, which is what I want. Pick a number 3x (If noones in yet) to 5x (if a bunch of limpers). Also adjust for how vulnerable your hand is. Raise more with more vulnerable. If you raise to $3.00 with QQ and everyone folds, you've basically made a 100% return on your bet preflop. I can live with that. KK or AA it's a shame, so I'll raise them to $2.00, if I know it will drive out the total junk. Same with a premium draw. I may raise even less with it just to add value to the pot if I do hit. I want all of them staying then.

My 2 cents,
Rick

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise to $3.00 with QQ and everyone folds, you've basically made a 100% return on your bet preflop. I can live with that. KK or AA it's a shame, so I'll raise them to $2.00,

[/ QUOTE ]

against decent opposition, this is a really bad idea. it's a disaster to give up this much info on your hand before the flop.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, you want your raise sizes to be fairly consistent so your opponents cannot determine the strength of your hand based on your raise size.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with part two, you do not want opponents to be able to determine the strength of your hand based on the raise size. However, I disagree with part one, that your raise sizes have to be consistant in order to accomplish this. Let me say it this way:

Decide whether you plan to fold, limp, or raise based on several factors, including (primarily!) the strength of your hand. If you decide to raise, decide the amount of the raise based on your position, your table image, the number of callers so far, the make-up of the table, and, if you like, the phase of the moon, but only those things that the opponents have equal access to. Never let the strength of your hand determine the amount of the raise. This means that you might still have a wide variety of preflop raises, from 3 BBs to 12, but that an opponent does not learn anything about your hand from it.

The exception to this rule is if your name is "Mike Caro" AND you are referred to as "the mad genius of poker." In this case, you are (I assume) capable of randomizing correctly across the spectrum of your raise quantities, such that you do tend to raise more with the better hands, but not such that anyone can get useful information from the tendency.

[Wayfare]

We need to know how deep stacks are here. If they are short and opponents are passive you should raise 8-10x BB to get it heads up with something like AQ or AK.

If they are deeper you might want to raise a little less and be a little more cautious because people will have better odds to stack you with a small pocket pair turning into a set.

If you can raise it up to more than 10% of their stacks without telegraphing your hand, I would suggest that.

[nightlyraver]

Here is the reasoning behind the rationale:

AA,KK,QQ,JJ and even AKo or AQo are great starting hands, but not in a multi-way pot. As the number of players who see the flop goes up, the hands that will try to win w/ top pair (like AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AKo and AQo) go DOWN in value and hands that will try to win w/ straights, flushes, sets, etc. go UP in value (like QJs, JTs, T9s, 77, 66, etc.). This is all due to the fact that top pair or an overpair generally has trouble winning against many oponents. Therefore, with a hand like QQ you will want to knock out the players that are looking to make hands that will beat an overpair - like the JTs. When you raise, you are not only elliminating 55,44,76s and the like, but you are also giving people with hands like QJs an oportunity to make a mistake. In essence, you are CHARGING them for the privalege of seeing a flop that they will not be able to win the majority of the time. They will flop either nothing or a second best hand when they hold QJs and you hold QQ so you can't let them see the flop for cheap since they will be folding often. That said, if you raise enough (and I'm of the opinion that 4xBB + BBx#OfLimpers is a good formula)then you will both charge the stupid players for seeing the flop, and you will gain information about the players who play back at you post-flop. Example: You have QQ, raise and the flop come K74. You can safely fold to some good action. OR - you have QQ, raise and the flop comes AQ5. You can safely play your hand very strongly since AK,AQ, and maybe even KK or A5s will play strongly back at you. You are winning the hand, will probably double up, and only need worry about AA. Added bonus, you can even safely fold your set of Q's to a 'rock' who will only call a big pre-flop raise with AA and starts betting big.