A common mistake (with 2 examples)

[muzungu]

Hey all,

So this mistake is relevant to all variants of poker, but I mostly play NLHE, so I will post it here. Lets go step by step:

1. The essense of beating a game is playing with weaker players.

2. With weaker players, you have a twofold advantage: you have better fundamentals, and you can also do a better job of identifying their weaknesses.

3. If you identify a weakness in your opposition, you need to tailor your game to exploit it.

Now, the problem is that lots of people get #1 and #2, but then do something that is comepletely contrary to #3. Here are 2 examples:


A) A good friend of mine is learning to play NL online. He is playing party NL 25, and can tell the players are not very good (1).

I ask him why, and he says things like, "well they call my preflop raises with trash like Q9o" and "then they call potsized bets on the flop with TP no kicker" (2).

OK, so we have identified bad players and their weaknesses (they are calling stations). So what does he do?

"Well, I bet pot again on the turn with AK (unimproved) and he set me all-in, so I folded."

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! DON'T BET AGAIN! YOU ARE PLAYING RIGHT INTO THEIR HANDS!


B) a 2+2er (who will go unnammed) makes the following comments about a hand (copied verbatim). Hero has KK and is facing a $150 bet into a $14 pot.

"If someone raises to $150 into a $14 pot preflop with AA then they're one of the dumbest players playing poker (2). Since you're playing on Party you can expect people to do that with AA so watch out (1)."

OK, we have (1) found some bad players and (2) identified their weaknesses... they overbet AA preflop and lose value vs other big hands, which can now fold. Well done.

"I still call" (3).

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


-muz

[B1GF1SHY]

That was my quote, and YESSSSSS!!!!! you still make the call. You can't be SURE he has AA and that IS the only hand that beats you. The comment on playing with the dumbest players was a joke. Typical party players are stupid but how often do you see someone pushing all-in preflop by raising 140 at 1/2nl into a $14 pot preflop. There was no read on this opponent by the hero which specified that [ QUOTE ]
they overbet AA preflop and lose value vs other big hands

[/ QUOTE ]
If the hero knew that than it was obvious it was a clear fold.

[schwza]

thanks for the post. i know i'm supposed to play that way, but it's a nice reminder to read it all spelled out.

[muzungu]

Bigfishy-

Whether or not calling is actually best is not really the point. My point is that if you make a read on a player then you should not immediately do the opposite of what that read suugests.

Not to single you out here, but your thought process here seems like an example of this. Just now, you say "how often do you see someone pushing all-in preflop by raising 140 at 1/2nl into a $14 pot preflop", which seems to suggest that this is an extremely rare event (and would be thus be done largely with AA). Then, without explanation, you say he should call with KK.

Oh, btw- note that you don't need to be SURE he has AA- with his huge overbet he only needs AA around half the time for a call to be a loser.

-muz

[greg nice]

muzungu, two things

in example A above, what would you rather do instead of bet? if you are against people who incorrectly call too often, dont you want to continue betting to take more money from them?

also

[ QUOTE ]


Oh, btw- note that you don't need to be SURE he has AA- with his huge overbet he only needs AA around half the time for a call to be a loser.


[/ QUOTE ]

could you elaborate on how this works out?

[Brian462]

[ QUOTE ]
in example A above, what would you rather do instead of bet? if you are against people who incorrectly call too often, dont you want to continue betting to take more money from them?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, when you are ahead. AK unimproved at the turn is very unlikely to still be ahead so be happy to check and take a free card.

[JohnG]

If an opponent is lucky enough to overbet AA preflop when I have KK, he's usually getting paid off.