Completing then retreating

Jester999 · #1 10-13-2004, 12:33 PM

No reads on the other pertinent player at all. I believe this was his first orbit. Comments on every aspect welcome along with deep insights into the meaning of life.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed)

UTG ($77.85)
UTG+1 ($100)
MP1 ($185)
MP2 ($56.85)
CO ($91)
Button ($73.95)
Hero ($131.35)
BB ($62.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, CO calls $1, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($6) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets $3, MP2 folds, CO calls $3, Hero raises to $15, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, CO calls $12.

Turn: ($39) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $25, CO raises to $50, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $114

Ben · #2 10-13-2004, 12:40 PM

I push here. He's possibly got you outkicked or has a house, but I think this one is worth playing out.

Wayfare · #3 10-13-2004, 12:42 PM

I think it is a very disciplined fold. I do not see a rational player who would call a push with a worse hand, but you might push him off a slightly better one.

FWIW I think you played this hand expertly.

cornell2005 · #4 10-13-2004, 12:45 PM

agreed. you would like to be able to put him on AA/KK, but you will usually see him make his move on the flop if he has one of these. the only decision is to flat call or fold. being out of positon, i probably fold.

as a side note, if you knew the river would be a diamond and you were in position i would call. thoughts?

rickr · #5 10-13-2004, 12:50 PM

I'd bet money villian had 9 10. On the flop he bet half pot. Enough to possibly drive off draws. If you had called, he would have put you on a flush or straight draw. Your raise put him in check call mode because of his 10 kicker and the flush draw. The ten gave him full house, with still a small worry that your bigger kicker could hit on the river, so he was making you pay dearly if you wanted to see it. Either that or 9 A and with the straight and flush draw he was pushing.
That's my read, and I'd say good fold.

Later,
Rick

phil_ivey_fan · #6 10-13-2004, 01:37 PM

I agree w/ everyone who said it was a good fold. Hands like these will take a leg out of the guy w/ the weakest kicker.

At least you didn't have A9 and call and see his boat.

Would anyone lay A9 down?

Jester999 · #7 10-13-2004, 02:07 PM

okay...one at a time....

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I push here. He's possibly got you outkicked or has a house, but I think this one is worth playing out.

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A buddy of mine agrees with you which is I why I posted. I had just defined a big hand for this guy. He seemed to like his hand. Maybe he had 7 8 or 8 9, but he's still currently sitting at the table and seems competent. And if he does have one of the aforementioned hands, what's he thinking about me? I mean I could be on a steal but it's one bold steal with him cold calling the first post flop bet and my raise.

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FWIW I think you played this hand expertly.

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There's a first time for everything.

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as a side note, if you knew the river would be a diamond and you were in position i would call. thoughts?

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I think this is very Negreanuish (is that a word?). He seems to think about real outs and 'outs' that will help him convince an opponent he has a certain hand. I think this play would be very good as you described against good players.

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I'd bet money villian had 9 10.

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That would be one helluva read.

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Would anyone lay A9 down?

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I don't think I would have.

Thanks for all the replies.

kayaker · #8 10-13-2004, 04:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is a very disciplined fold. I do not see a rational player who would call a push with a worse hand, but you might push him off a slightly better one.

FWIW I think you played this hand expertly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. He's really only looking at a few possible hands.
1. Top Overpair (AA/KK/QQ) - I would have expected a raise PF. If not PF, then on the flop. - Odds: 20-1 against
2. Med. High Overpair (JJ/TT) - I can see calls PF, then again on the flop. It's a bit of a stretch for him to call your big flop raise w/ these hands, but certainly not unusual. - Odds: 3-1 against
3. 55 - A limp PF is fairly standard w/ several limpers ahead on this hand. He hits a boat on the flop, so he's content to slowplay it for now and just call. His only real threat here is if you have 99, A9 or T9s. - Odds: 2-1 for
4. A9s - As with 55, limping PF is expected. This is a good hand to play in a family pot, esp. in position, so his limp is fine. He flops TSTK, and is feeling confident, so he CCs. Only discount is there being only on 9 remaining. - Odds: 5-1 against
5. Nut Flush Draw - His calls PF and on the flop are normal at this level, but a reraise on the turn is very aggressive with this hand. The only real possibility here is AT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], so he's got the NFD and now T2PTK. Odds: 5-1 against

So, three of the five most likely holdings (JJ/TT/55/AT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]/A9s) have you dominated, while the other two have outs. It's very hard to muck a set, but that's the danger when it's open like that. Nice laydown.

JFB37 · #9 10-13-2004, 09:28 PM

I agree that this probably was a good fold. Now let's turn the hand around and look at what Villian did. Assume he did, in fact, have 9T. Was his raise on the turn smart or should he have smooth called? I think the raise cost him money. Anyone disagree?

kayaker · #10 10-14-2004, 09:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that this probably was a good fold. Now let's turn the hand around and look at what Villian did. Assume he did, in fact, have 9T. Was his raise on the turn smart or should he have smooth called? I think the raise cost him money. Anyone disagree?

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I'd have called, hoping to raise on the river. No way can I expect him to put me on the boat there. MAYBE he can put me on a set, but not the boat. I'm looking to get AI, and it won't happen w/ a raise on the turn. Any bet from Hero on the river makes him pot committed, so I'm confident I can double up w/ a call on the turn and raise/push on the river.