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#1
10-09-2004, 11:15 AM
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Two hands sweating another 2+2er
Names are being withheld to protect the innocent. I'm at the local cardroom last night, and I spot another 2+2er, one of the more well-known O/8 posters, playing O/8. I've been playing mostly hold'em myself lately, but I wander over to say 'hi' and sweat him on a few hands. How'd he do...?
1st hand: He picks up A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Jx Qx in mid-position. There are a couple callers and he limps as well. I'd probably raise here in a passive game (like this one), but I think limping is a viable option as well. There are a couple more limpers, the blind checks, and six players see the flop for 1 bet each. Flop was K-3-4 rainbow. Checked around. Turn paired the 3. A bet before him and my friend folds. Seemed pretty straightforward. The good thing with high-only hands is that they're pretty easy to play postflop. My preference for raising preflop is because I think there's a good chance to scoop if I win, (and I don't think the raise will scare out many customers in this game) but I wouldn't argue too vociferously with just calling to keep everyone in. 2nd hand: My friend picks up Kx K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5x in MP. Once again, there are two limpers (and there's a cutoff poster, as well, so good multiway odds) and he limps as well. I think this was an easy play. Sure, the 5 is a dangler, but in a passive game I think the odds are there to try to flop top set. 7 players wind up taking the flop for 1 bet each. The flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Checked to my friend, who bets his set, and is called in 5 places. Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], putting a low draw out there as well as another flush draw. Checked to him again, he bets, and everyone calls. River is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Checked to him, he checks, checked to the button, who bets. There's a call, my friend (correctly) folds, and there's one overcaller. Original bettor shows 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], original caller folds (probably Q-T), the overcaller shows K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Jx for top two + the 2nd nut (winning) flush. Okay, so these hands don't illustrate too many major points or tricky plays, but passive O/8 games should usually be played very straightforward. I just wanted to show that some of the better forum posters can play as well as write. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] 
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#3
10-09-2004, 08:08 PM
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Re: Two hands sweating another 2+2er
El Dukie - I'm laughing and red-faced at the same time.
What a memory you have! Perfect in every detail. It was a $3-$6 game at Hollywood Park Casino. I had signed up for the $4-$8 and $8-$16 games, but got called to the $3-$6 game first, got my favorite seat (#3) and found the group of players seated at the table to be very congeneal. (At another $3-$6 table next to us they were meanly squabbling all evening). The guy on the right side of me - a nice guy and good player - is from San Diego and plays regularly at Ocean's-11. The woman on the left side of me was a nice lady. When my name was called for the $8-$16 game I decided to stay where I was and enjoy the evening. ---- Yeah, I admit the K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hand is not a good starting hand. But I was having a good time and not playing hard-ass poker. I thought I'd probably be folding after the flop and then, lo and behold, there was a king on the flop. Happens roughly one time out of eight. The board also had two hearts and also two to a high straight, not good from my perspective, but only one low card. I wanted to play the hand fast to hopefully eliminate baby flush draws and 4-out straight draws, and also to charge the runner-runner low draws, should they want to pay through the nose to continue. The turn was a low card and put two clubs on the board. Maybe at that point I should have backed off. But I have ten scoop outs and five callers. (If the board pairs I scoop). So it's 3.4 to 1 against the board pairing, and I'm getting 5 to 1 fresh money odds - clearly a favorable odds situation from my perspective. As luck would have it, a high heart came on the river, there was a bet and two callers. (I vaguely wondered if they all had the flush - but two of them mucked without showing - and I didn't want to risk embarassing anyone by asking to see the mucked hands). With a low heart on the river the decision would have been more difficult. As it was, it seemed a clear fold. Under different circumstances, I might not have even played the hand. I do recognize it's a very speculative starting hand. ---- As to raising with the other hand, A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], my philosophy is you can raise or not before the flop with almost any hand you decide to play. Whether to raise or not before the flop doesn't, in my humble opinion, depend much upon the actual cards you hold. I've thought about pre-flop raising a lot recently, and have dealt out hundreds of sets of nine Omaha-8 hands, then played them as though there was no pre-flop raise, and also played them as though there was a pre-flop raise. I keep track with chips, using one chip for a small bet and two chips for a big bet. So I have nine hands lined up in front of me and I go through and bet the nine hands as though there is no pre-flop raise, lining up the chips in one row. Then I go through and bet the nine hands as though there is a pre-flop raise, lining up the chips in a second row. Try it yourself and see what happens. I think you might be surprised at how poorly pre-flop raises do in Omaha-8. For everyone who folds to the double bet - but who would have chased all the way all the way without the double bet, you lose six chips. Very often, assuming intelligent play by your opponents after the flop, all you gain by the pre-flop raise when you do end up with a winner is one chip (or a half chip if you split the pot). Try it yourself and see. If you have a one way nut-draw the other way non-nut but possible-winner hand, you do promote your chances of scooping by raising before the flop - but I think you do better by making your move with such a hand on the second or third betting round (or some combination of those together with the fourth betting round). You may lose this hand-promotional ploy by jerking the hook too fast and making the pot too large before the flop. Of course what to do always depends upon your opponents. If they're all oblivious to your pre-flop raise that's one thing. (In that case go ahead and raise). But if you lose just one chaser because of the pre-flop raise, your net gain is less - and that's when you do win the hand. When you lose the hand, your cost is obviously higher. If you're a predictable pre-flop raiser, (for example, AAXX in early position and A2XX in late position or the blinds) I'll take that seriously into account in terms of how I play the hand, using the information I've gotten from your pre-flop raise (and also the information gotten when you don't raise) against you. And I'm not alone. (It's just a $3-$6 ring game, but sometimes there are some pretty good players in those games). And there certainly are some pretty good players in the higher limit Omaha-8 games I sometimes stumble into. That's all general reasoning. There's other reasoning specific for the table of opponents you're facing. (For example, you might want to be trying to cultivate a certain image). In addition, you can completely change a game from juicy passive to tight aggressive with pre-flop raises. For example, if I think there's much of a chance of a pre-flop raise behind me, I'm not limping with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. And I'm not alone. For A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], specifically, a pre-flop raise is very reasonable, in my humble opinion, because nobody can put you on that hand for your pre-flop raise. Very reasonable, that is, assuming you don't lose anyone. As noted, if you lose a chaser, when you do get a favorable flop and end up winning, then you lose whatever the chaser would have contributed on the first, second, third and fourth betting rounds. It's like of like fishing and jerking the hook just a bit too soon (so as to lose the fish). When you have four high cards, the flop has two or three high cards 6460/17296. But all of those aren't playable. The most you can stretch it, I think, is to about 5804/17296 or about one third. In other words about one third of the possible flops are possibly playable, but some of those I'm counting as playable might cause raised eyebrows amongst conservatibe players. For example, I'm counting J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] as a playable flop, because you have top two pair, but it would be pretty hard to call a double bet, and you need a bunch of opponents who will chase if the board pairs with tens or jacks to justify a single bet - and you're only possibly looking at one more card (the turn), because if the board flushes on the turn, as for example with the 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], or if the board pairs with an eight on the turn, it's pretty hard to call a bet. Anyhow, if you assume five of you will see the flop for two bets, the pot is enriched by an extra bet from four opponents. One third of the time (maximum) that seems good, assuming you didn't lose a chaser. Two thirds of the time you lose an extra bet yourself. +4-2=+2. Looks good, eh? But wait! Even when you catch a favorable flop, you're not going to always end up with a winner. Say you win half the time after catching a favorable flop. In that case +4/2-2=0. So we're at zero gain for the pre-flop raise with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. But (oops) we didn't consider the times you win for high but low comes in on the river - and you end up splitting the pot. In that case you end up losing overall with your pre-flop raise, because you don't win enough when you win to counteract what you lose when you lose. Thus even with this very reasonable hand for a pre-flop raise, I honestly don't think you generally do better by raising pre-flop. The only time a pre-flop raise seems to be worth while, in my humble opinion, is when it induces an opponent (who is intimidated by the pre-flop raise) to fold a hand that would have beaten you for all or part of a pot you win if the intimidated opponent folds. Whether to raise or not in Omaha-8 always, in my humble opinion, depends on your opponents. Sometimes, under some circumstances, I'd raise before the flop with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Thus I can see raising with the hand. ---- When you got to the table, El Dukie, I had been ahead over $200, but had dropped down to about even after having not won a hand for about two hours. In spite of the fine company at the table, losing steadily for two hours is a bit of a downer. But you cheered me up and I appreciate your stopping by. In addition, I greatly value your viewpoint and appreciate your feedback. Take care. Buzz
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#4
10-11-2004, 12:48 PM
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Re: Two hands sweating another 2+2er
About low-limit O8, Buzz writes:
[ QUOTE ] The only time a pre-flop raise seems to be worth while, in my humble opinion, is when it induces an opponent (who is intimidated by the pre-flop raise) to fold a hand that would have beaten you for all or part of a pot you win if the intimidated opponent folds. [/ QUOTE ] That's not unreasonable, but I like to raise for one other reason, namely table image. Sometimes a raise of a speculative hand early on in the evening will let you flash the hand to the table. In particular, it should be a hand that is better hold-em than omaha, such as KQQT. If you're lucky, the betting will slow-down due to your raise and you'll get to check down to the river and show "Gee - my pocket queens didn't improve!". If that happens, you can raise with rocks later on and everyone will merrily call you to the river. In particular, you can punish limpers with impunity when you pick up strong hands on the button. I don't do this often, but once in a while the chance comes. It has to be: - early on in the session - at a table that will be relatively static - best in late position or very early position
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