Is this SSH approved?

[blackaces13]

Thanks for the post Stellar. Makes a lot of sense. I basically assumed I was up against a weak J after being led into on the flop so I though the free card stood to help me more than hurt me. Now I see that the free card could have hurt me and betting the turn likely costs the same as waiting and calling the river.

One question though. What if the flop bettor wakes up again on the river after I bet the turn? Also assume that there is a call in front of me on the river here as well. I have to call in this situation right (or do I fold due to the overcall)? In this instance the turn bet would cost me an extra BB right?

EDIT: Another possiblity is if the player on my right leads the river after I bet turn, could this possibly a raise here because I "don't want overcallers" as it says in SSH?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
a speculative hand like KTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ajax, I think that this hand is not quite as speculative as you may think. Notice that in the very hand I posted here I won because of pairing my "big" cards, not as a reslut of a flush or freak straight. Incidentally, I was ahead the entire hand though I thought otherwise.

If the hand was 56s then I would certainly agree with you. But the fact is that you make your flush about 4% of the time, that's it. A pair of kings wins a LOT of hands and the more people I can knock out while simulataneously making the pot bigger with what I think to be a much better than "average" limping hand the better my chance is of taking a nice size pot down with a pair. In this hand my pair of T's was actually good enough to drag the pot on the river. Just something to think about.

If I did manage to hit my flush I still don't lose much if anything IMO. Now I've got 4 opponents who are psychologically committed to the hand and facing a pre-f raiser who is betting and raising as he is expected to do (I can usually count on being called down by any piece of the board in these spots). I can make just about as much money against that size field in for a double bet as I can from a few more players (which I can't guarantee are going to limp in ANYWAY) who I let in cheap and will fold fairly easily.

[JustOnce]

As a new player with about 3000 hands under my belt I justed wanted to say this was a very helpful thread on my path toward becoming a better player. The points on the turn play were very instructive. Personally I would just limp with KTs currently as I would feel a bit uncomfortable playing this postflop if I didn't hit a flush draw or a TP. KTs probably becomes more EV+ the better your postflop play is.

[helpmeout]

One of the 4 remaining may not have you dominated nor the 3 limpers in front but there are plenty of times they will have you dominated.

When someone 3 bets after you and shortens the field what are you going to do?

What about when one of the limpers has AK KQ KJ AT JJ TT etc. Or someone in late position limps with one of these hands, you will lose money later when you think your hand is best.

Thats the weakness of KT, plenty of hands beat you badly.

If you had AJo in this position you would raise because a lot less hands can dominate you compared to KT.

[Jimbobobb]

May may and plenty plenty. We're talking EV and averages here. On average, this is a plus EV play for all of the reasons already stated.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
I just have difficulty with the concept that a raise pre-flop here is right. With speculative hands in mid-position it seems that we want more callers - not fewer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it this way. If you want your KTs to play against 6 people, its because you want the added money in the pot. If you have 3 limpers at 1 SB each, then you raise, there's an addition 3 SB for sure. Also, this raise got him the button, which is invaluable. His preflop raise, coenciding with the flop raise, slowed down the Jx so much he got to catch up for free.

Also, just because you raise this preflop, and win the button, doesn't mean you have to bet if checked to. If you have K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and raise and the flop comes down A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], there is no law that says you have to bet this flop. Getting the extra money in there when you hit a good flop more than makes up for this 1 SB investment preflop.

Derek

[Jimbobobb]

I also want to clarify that this should probably be a *default* play when you're against unknowns or people who play poorly. There are many situation where I would make this into a limp. For instance if one of the limpers was a rock, limping with things like AJ, KQ, etc etc. Or if people to act behind me were particularly aggressive. Different circumstances call for different plays. But against the avg field of limping horribleness that is party .5/1, raising this here is the correct play.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the 4 remaining may not have you dominated nor the 3 limpers in front but there are plenty of times they will have you dominated.

When someone 3 bets after you and shortens the field what are you going to do?


[/ QUOTE ]

So I shouldn't raise QQ or JJ because someone might have KK or AA?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
One question though. What if the flop bettor wakes up again on the river after I bet the turn? Also assume that there is a call in front of me on the river here as well. I have to call in this situation right (or do I fold due to the overcall)? In this instance the turn bet would cost me an extra BB right?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll be honest. This happens sometimes and it is always a problem.

Often I fold when the free showdown play fails in this fashion. A river bet after you bet the turn should show a lot more strength then if you had checked. It's logical to think your hand is unlikely to be good.

Logic doesn't make it true of course. He may be betting the river as a bluff. He may also be betting to prevent a free showdown, in which case he is not bluffing but may have a slightly worse hand than yours.

What to do?

1. Examine the river card. Does it make something? The most obvious explanation for his bet is that he improved.

2. Beware the unlikely scare card. The runner-runner flush comes but you are almost certain he couldn't have the flush. Or the river puts a pair of threes on the board but he is too tight to have a three. These are danger signs that he is using the scare card to support a bluff or prevent you from raising his thin value bet.

3. Examine the player. Is he tricky? Passive? Prone to strange slowplays?

4. How certain were you that this guy had a jack in the first place? The more marginal hands you can beat the more you should be inclined to call.

5. The golden rule is don't be genius on the river. If in doubt, call. If that means he outsmarted you, oh well. It's only 1 BB. Properly used the free showdown play is so profitable that you can accept an occasional backfire. What you cannot accept is losing pots due to bad river folds.

About the caller: he hardly matters. Where was he while we were playing the hand? Just calling. This is microlimits where morons call the river with any two cards. Did you ever worry that the caller had you beat? The fact that he also called the river doesn't change much. Your winning chances are about the same as if he had folded. Especially when you factor in the extra BB he just added to the pot odds.

The overcall rule is very useful in the right situation. It's useful when the caller has shown a good hand and you are seriously worried he might have you beat. It's also useful when you can only beat a bluff. You may catch the bettor bluffing, but how do you plan to beat the caller? There is no such thing as a bluff call.

Except in 0.5/1 where most of your opponents are idiots. You need to be very careful about the overcall rule in such a bad game. Too many people call the river without even a bluff catcher.

[ QUOTE ]
could this possibly a raise here because I "don't want overcallers" as it says in SSH

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't do that because your hand is too good. I don't expect a better hand to fold to a raise. I would just call (save money) and hope that worse hands are induced to overcall me (make money).

The time to try the river raise trick is when you think the bettor is bluffing but your hand is only strong enough to beat a bluff. Now you are afraid that someone may call behind you with a weak hand that just happens to beat you. Your actual hand is probably strong enough to beat all the hands that might fold to a raise.

[Jimbobobb]

I thought This was a really good example of the 'don't want overcalls' rule.