update - omaha 8 didn't kill me

[bodie]

Thanks to Buzz & Ben Franklin for your detailed advice this last week regarding O8 - I downloaded the Krieger articles, studied hands, played "fun" online games and against the computer and then went again last night to play live. What a difference! Biggest change - I was able to see the hands more clearly, as well as the fact that more of the hands either made it on the flop or turn when last time no matter what I had it was killed. I think I chased too much before, too. And I will say, as Buzz mentioned, that with generally six to eight callers, I was able to make several nut flushes with A-x suited. My biggest weakness (and I'd like to know what others think), is I can't resist seeing the flop when I have a pair - in a game such as I've described, is that terrible?

[Ghazban]

Congratulations on turning your luck around! As far as playing any pair, I think that's a pretty bad habit to get into. Set over set happens a lot more often in O8 than holdem so you can't be as certain your set/boat will be good even when you do hit it. Particularly bad are small pairs (8 or lower) as, when you make your set, there's a good chance you're only playing for half the pot.

[BradleyT]

Pairs suck when you have 2 rag cards to go with them. Luckily I don't carry over my hold em mantra of playing almost every pair for set value.

With 4 cards per player set over set is much more common in omaha as well as flushes and straights especially when players can have 20 card straight draws.

Toss em in the muck and your win rate will go up even more. The only pairs you should be playing should be accompanied by an A2 or A3 or a high pair (above 9) that is accompanied by two other high cards preferably suited.

Remember you get 4 cards that make 4+ two card combinations.


A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] makes

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] makes

K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

You don't have to be a sanitation technician to recognize garbage when you see it.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
My biggest weakness (and I'd like to know what others think), is I can't resist seeing the flop when I have a pair - in a game such as I've described, is that terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember that a flopped set is still a drawing hand at low limit, loose O8, especially if it is not top set. So with a bare pair, you are drawing hoping to make a drawing hand. Here is some advice from Annie Duke, who has some expertise in the game:

[ QUOTE ]
Playing Stranded Big Pairs


One of the key issues in Omaha 8/b is that you always want to have more than two cards working. In fact, the only hand you could justify playing out of any position where you only know two of your cards would be one that contains A2. When your hand is not playing at all for low this becomes more important. When you are playing a hand with only high features all four of your cards need to be working. What I mean by this is that all four of your cards have to be related to each other in some way.


If you are playing big pairs (by this I mean any pair 99 and above) the other two cards need to be strongly related to the pair. So, KsKdTh3c is a completely unplayable hand. You have exactly two kings, a hanging three unrelated to any of the other cards and no suited cards that would give you a flush feature. The only flop you would truly be happy with is one that gives you Kings full. This is a hand that if you were raised in the big blind you could throw it away. Certainly you would never call a raise with this hand in the small blind.


As a contrast consider KsKd2s3d. This is an incredibly powerful hand, one that you could play out of any position at the table. You have two suits, spades and diamonds, you have a big pair, kings, and you have two relatively strong low cards, 23. You are playing for high and low and have multiple high features to your hand. Plus, when an ace hits the board, you will often still have the nut low draw (as in a board of As4hTd) and you might often have the nut flush draw also (AsTs4d). You can flop many powerful hands with this and it is a hand that is easy to get away from. If the board is 2h5c6d for example you have an easy fold.


As another contrast, consider hands like QcQhJcTh and JhTdTh9d. Again these two hands are eminently playable because all four of your cards are strongly related. Further, when you make your hand you will almost always be getting the whole pot as flopping these hands well generally means high cards will hit the board. You have lots of straight possibilities. It is easy to flop a high wrap-a very powerful Omaha hand. If the board hits with a 98K, for example, and you have QQJT you can make a straight with a 7, T, J or Q. This is called a total wrap, when any of four possible cards makes your straight. Further, when you make your hand with the Q this also gives you a set so that when the board pairs you still have a very powerful hand.


So big pairs can be very powerful starting hands but only if you have two strongly related other cards in your hand as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Ghazban]

Annie has quite a few useful (and pretty short) O8 articles on her website (www.annieduke.com). I'm not trying to shill for her or anything but given that one of the articles was C&Ped in this thread, you might as well have the source for all of them.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] makes

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

Oops I forgot another combination - 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Now you know why they call this hand the nuts.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't resist seeing the flop when I have a pair - in a game such as I've described, is that terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bodie - Depends on the pair and the other two cards that go with it. I like Bradley's graphic example which makes it very clear that you need supporting cards for your pair.

In a tight game you like aces, kings and maybe queens - but nothing lower.

In a looser game you can relax the requirements a bit. The idea is to find a fit with the flop such that you have a set and such that you'll have an overboat if the board pairs. Thus if you hold a hand such as
K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the flop has a jack and another reasonably close card, you'll have a set of jacks and a straight draw, and maybe also some flush back-up. If the flop is
J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], you have a playable fit. Then if the board pairs on the turn or river, and if the pair is lower than jacks (as it is likely to be), you have ended up with an overboat (a full house such that the pair in your hand is higher than the pair on the board). It won't be the nuts but it will be a very strong hand and should usually win and maybe catch an inferior full house. (And there is some straight and flush back-up potential).

If you make an underboat, a full house such that the pair in your hand is lower than the pair on the board, I think you generally play it - but, as Chaos puts it, you don't draw for an underboat. And that's why you don't like the pair in your hand to be too low.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[bodie]

Thanks to all for your advice once again re pairs. Actually, I didn't mention that I am aware of all four cards working together, and of [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] unrelated dangling cards being a negative. I just can hardly resist at this low level game, paying to see the flop in case quads come. I've seen it happen just often enough...I have to get over that. I read Annie Duke's articles regarding baby pairs and high pairs....of course she makes some important points. I was watching a televised Omaha Hi tournament a few weeks ago and each person was dealt a pair. They all called except one who had a pair of 3's - he folded. Wouldn't you know the flop had two 3's - the look on his face was sick, since everyone bet and it turned into a good pot. I have to get over not wanting to be in that position! It's too easy at low limit somewhat looser games to just pay to see the flop.
I'm thinking of playing in a limit O8 tournament next week - any pointers of what to emphasize in a tournament in this game? I don't know the exact limit yet -

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
They all called except one who had a pair of 3's - he folded. Wouldn't you know the flop had two 3's

[/ QUOTE ]

Bodie - The probability of that happening is 46/17296 = 1/376. One time out of 376 your low pair will make quads on the flop. More often, 45/376, you'll catch a single card to match your low pair - and then you're often trapped. Even more frequently, 330/376, you won't see a card matching your pair on the flop. In that case your other two cards may fit with something on the flop - and then a three (if threes is your low pair) may appear on the turn or river, often creating a dilemma for you.

Even if you figure 10 to 1 implied pot odds (surely an unrealistically high estimate), then at 1/376, you'd need 38 opponents in the hand with you in order to justify playing for quad threes - but there are only nine or ten seats at the table!

In short, the odds simply cannot justify playing a low pair and looking for quads on the flop. Hope the above helps you to see it.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking of playing in a limit O8 tournament next week - any pointers of what to emphasize in a tournament in this game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Omaha-8 tournaments can be fun. Optimum play in such a tournament is quite different from ring game optimum play.

In the main, you want to play tighter in a tournmant, keeping in mind that the number one goal is survival.

Go to the 2+2 tournament forum to get advice on tournaments. Before doing that, read a book (or several books) about tournament play. Tournament players are a breed of their own. In a tournament, you're more likely to encounter regular tournament players than regular Omaha-8 ring game players.

Just my opinion.

Buzz