Good Stud Play?

[patrick dicaprio]

i think you are missing a key point here: this is a raise for value not for stealing or to get others to fold.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

if i had a nickel for every time there was a hand posted here where you and i disagreed and i advocated a more aggressive position and you were more conservative id be able to play in the WSOP next year [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pat

[Raven]

www.pokercalculator.com
This is a nice little software if you want to simulate poker hands.

[Andy B]

What exactly is "simply not true"? I call raising with a live three-flush in a multi-way pot a value raise, and you counter me by saying it's a value raise. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] If his hand isn't live, though, it's a bad play however you look at it.

[timmer]

A call reraise with a 3iSF J hi with 2 suits gone is simply a bad play here. Raising your own price this high with a hand you will have to hit twice against a pot thirsty crowd isnt a good thing to do.

I would have raised it coming in if my pairs and straight cards were live even with the 8 up. If they are weak as well I flat call or MUCK.

Just my few cents

timmer

[MRBAA]

You know, I think our biggest difference is on how we play good draws early. I love to ram and jam big pairs on the early streets and monster draws. But with strong draws without good high card value, I tend to play slower -- the extra round of betting in stud makes the strategy of waiting to get in action until you see where your hand goes somewhat more advantageous -- whatever EV you give up early you can get back late. I suspect that since we're both tough to run over and will adapt to opponents and situations, our difference translates to very little difference in earn.

That's not true in HE, and learning to be more aggressive preflop with hands that may need to fold on the flop or turn has been a big adjustment for me.

[MBTIGUY]

I didn't miss it. Rightly or wrongly - and I'm pefectly willing to consider that I'm wrong here - I just don't value this hand as much as you and Andy clearly do. I am much more in line with what MRBAA wrote much more eloquently than I could:
[ QUOTE ]
I love to ram and jam big pairs on the early streets and monster draws. But with strong draws without good high card value, I tend to play slower -- the extra round of betting in stud makes the strategy of waiting to get in action until you see where your hand goes somewhat more advantageous -- whatever EV you give up early you can get back late.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MBTIGUY]

[ QUOTE ]

Just to show how strong it [8tJs] is, a pair of Queens win 23.3 % of the time against the same field, and a pair of kings win about 26 % of the times, you would raise a pair of kings no ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, maybe the answer is no. Your sim numbers are interesting and probably useful to know. However there is a danger there that Mason points out in one of more of his Essays - real hands don't play like simulations.
The strategies for playing a high flush draw and a pair of Kings or Queens are very different, therefore what one is trying to accomplish with a raise can be very different. And the way one will continue to play a draw or a high pair will be different than merely turning up 7 cards in each case randomly 100,000 times to see the outcome. I'm sure I've only stated the obvious but my point here is that I don't think the simulation alone makes the case for a raise.
One of the major points of the Loose Games section of 7csfap is that you might NOT raise with, say, Kings on 3rd street even if calling costs you money then. You'll more than make up for it on later streets if you can catch cards that make it easier to knock people out or will make your hand stronger multi-way.

[skibum]

Since I slept on it and then re-read the thread, I've had the opportunity to realize I wasn't far wrong in my guess work. Merely incorrect. I probably would have flunked with most professors, but passed with most teachers. For me, it was an excellent exercise in intuition and ineptitude, and provided an intellectual incentive for research.
This aint rocket science, nor is it for the faint of heart.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Timmer, thanks for the kind words and the heads up. Be seeing ya.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I think our biggest difference is on how we play good draws early. I love to ram and jam big pairs on the early streets and monster draws. But with strong draws without good high card value, I tend to play slower

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you 100%, another point to to add to your position is that since as a good player you tend to be more selective your opponents, you want to invest less in the earlier rounds since are going to bail out more often.