which is better in o8, KKTJ, AATJ

[joker1976]

both single suited to K and A, normally I automatically feel that AATJ is a much better hand, and often raise with it, but the more I play the more I feel that hands with AA are not all that great without a good low card. At a table where at least 4 players see the flop regardless whether you raise, both hands are basically playing for trip, full house, straight or flush, among all trip is most likely to hit. When AA hit another A on the flop, there's often a low possibility, you are likely only going for half the pot, but when KK hit another K on the flop, there's often not a good low draw, aggressively betting on the flop can usually knock out the backdoor lows and scoop the pot on river. When table shows a low draw on flop, there's also a lot more chasers for baby flush or weak straight when they have any kind of low, trip has a harder time to win on river and often turn into a big loser. Now I often drop hands like AA96 single suited to A MP unless the table is very loose passive, Anyone feels the same?

[Beavis68]

But if there is nlow draw possible, how much action are you going to get? Just hope you can get a few people with 23 and 24 in their hands - and extract the max from them to try and complete their low - and hope they dont make a wheel or flush!

But mostly, I feel that trips suck at high low unless you have a low to get with them - you usually have to boat up to really feel good about your hand.

[iblucky4u2]

Joker,
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned with the A there is often a low. It is actually much worse because when there is a low without a pair to make your full house, you tend to hang in to the river while the player with the made low is freerolling on you. With the K, it is either hit it or get out.

On the other hand, if you make your full house, straight or flush, the A lets you drive the betting without fear of losing to a higher straight or flush being out there.

On one hand it is a tough choice, but on the other, I always like having the nuts [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[soundgarden4]

You said that when an ace flops with your AAJT hand you're usually going for half the pot, (because of the low potential) but you also need to look at when an ace flops with your KKJT hand. There is still the low potential but now you may be drawing to a broadway straight or the nut flush draw, which is still only half the pot. Now if a King and one other high card flop with your AATJ hand, you still have top pair with at least a broadway draw and possible nut flush draws. It seems to me that the AATJ hand plays better overall whether the hand is going to be high/low (they play equally as bad) or high only, where the AATJ seems to play better (this takes into account that if you do hit trips on the flop with your aces that you are willing to dump them if there is already a low or accept that you're drawing to only half the pot).

[Buzz]

Joker - I think you'll generally do better with AATJs than with TJKKs. Three reasons:

• (1) It's often easier to drive the betting with AATJs than with TJKKs.

Raising from early position with AATJs to thin the field in some games makes sense. When you have two aces in your own hand there's a reduced chance of finding an opponent with an ace.

Raising from early position with TJKKs to thin the field in these same games, although advocated by some experts, does not make as much sense. You probably don't drive out someone who has an ace and something to go with it. Then if an ace appears on the board your kings usually do not look very strong. (But if you have a pair of aces and a king appears on the board, it's not scary).

Your pair of aces by themselves, or in conjunction with a lower board pair, may win for high. The same is somewhat true of kings, but with kings you have to be concerned about an opponent possibly having aces.

• (2) While scooping when you do have a winner is probably more common with TJKKs than with AATJs, you do sometimes scoop with either hand - and the pots you scoop with AATJs tend to be larger than the pots you scoop with TJKKs.

• (3) Pots where low is possible are generally substantially larger than pots where no low is possible. And that difference in pot size, when you do have a winner, at least partly makes up for the difference between splitting and scooping.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[twankerr]

AATJ is better. The reasons stated in this thread are all correct, but there is also this

AATJ makes a nut straight every time. The straights it can make are :
789(10j)
89(10j)q
9(10j)kq
(10j)kqa
(10)jkq(a)
10(j)kq(a)

just something to think about. the only straight kktj can make that aatj cant is something like a board of a + q + 10/j

[BradleyT]

When you have AATJs you have 2 of the most powerful cards in the deck that other players can't receive.

Of course if you're playing $2/$4 online ($5/$10 B&M) or lower neither of these hands are spectacular unless you get a high flop with 0 or 1 low cards. AAxx gets way overplayed in low limit o/8 by ex holdem players, but of the 2 choices I would take the AATJs.