Turn Raises -- How do you handle them?

[O Doyle Rules]

How do you respond to turn raises in either a heads up situations or with two opponents? Specifically, if you are holding top pair/top kicker or an over pair to the board after the flop.

If the board is non threatening, do you always assume a set or two pair and go into a call/check/call mode? Do you ever re-raise with top pair/top kicker or an overpair heads up?

If board is threatening, do you ever lay it down to a turn raise? Heads up? With 2 opponents?

Does anyone always fold to a turn raise in these situations, when it is heads up and the pot is small? And if so, do you feel it is +EV?

For sake of arguement, lets assume this is online with no particular read on your opponent.

Thanks to all who respond.

[samz]

I am having the same set of questions and issues.

I think its a major leak to just go into call and check mode. I know most posters will say you need to call it down.

1)It depends on the size of the pot
2)It depends on the # of outs you have

If you call down in these situations - where is your profit coming from?

It seems like it is coming only from pre-flop hand selection and not from sound judgement once you are in a hand.

If you play with the same set of people and routinely lay it down - this will cost you with observant players - on party at the lower limits i dont think its going to cost you anything - cant speak for 15/30

[samz]

I think you need to specify what limit you are playing - again at 3/6 I think it might be +EV to fold every time except when you have a strong draw.

I would love to here others thoughts

[O Doyle Rules]

Hey Samz,

I am talking full ring games only, and I would say at limits of $3/$6 to $15/$30 using the same standards I laid out in my original question. If someone feels they would play it differently just because of the limit they are playing, I would like to know their reasoning.

[Jeffro]

Trust me when I say if you just go in to call down mode you will lose in the long run. Not to go off topic here but I think this might help a lot of players who believe just calling the turn raise or check-raise and a bet on the river is the best way to avoid getting pulled off the best hand.

Prior to PokerTracker there was a product called PokerStat, while it is still available most of you have probably not heard of it as Tony aka poster thwnag99 appears to have stopped development and allowed PokerTracker to take over the market. *Hint* Tony if you build it they will come *Hint*
One of the things that I thought that was an advantage for PokerStat was the ease at which you could query the database based on the action of the hand. For example

Show Hands when (Choose Player) (Choose Action) a (Choose Action) on the (Choose Street)
Show Hands when Hero called a check-raise on the turn

Well low and behold after accumulating wins and losses after calling turn check-raises I was down a considerable sum.

Of course the answer is going to be depends, here is the answer I got 2 years ago answer
What I did was try to review every hand where I was in these situations and review the action and the boards to see where I went wrong.

Hope it helps

[mplspoker]

Ultimately, if you are playing on party and have AQ or AK and hit your flop and get check raised or raised on turn you absolutely must continue with the hand and call down. Folding is not an option. People will raise on turn with a wide variety of hands not just sets and two pairs.

Now if you have a much weaker holding like you limp in with j10s and catch a ten on flop and bet and then get raised on turn is an easy lay down.

Layind down KK with a board of Queen high is the most rediciculous thing i have heard here in a long time.

[Jeffro]

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately, if you are playing on party and have AQ or AK and hit your flop and get check raised or raised on turn you absolutely must continue with the hand and call down. Folding is not an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely some of the worst advice I have heard in awhile, please come play at my table.

[samz]

I have called down my fair share of raises and check raises on the turn and have seen about 1% or less of these be bluffs. In fact, I cant remeber the last time it was a bluff with a smallish pot.

I would have saved a ton by folding most of the time -
This is at 3/6 and lower. There is no way its EV+ except if the pot is large which might induce someone to run a bluff but even then its not very likely at this limit imo.

[MaxPower]

The problem with your analysis is that you are basing it on hands played on Paradise Poker 2 years ago (yes, I used pokerstat as well). The games played on Party and some of the other sites now are entirely different. If you fold to too many turn raises in these games you will be giving up money.

I wish pokertracker was capable of running an analysis like this, but it is not.

I'm not sure how you did your analysis, but if you include the dead money in the pot in the amount you lost than your analysis can't be correct.

[CaptObvious]

Are we talking strictly about a limit game, or does this include NL as well? I would say it comes down to situational analysis really. If you've been playing with that opponent for a bit you might now how they generally play. Or, as you said if you have no particular read on the opponent, you need to consider that if you get raised if you've come out betting, or are check-raised on the turn that you could've been beat on the flop. Since the turn is more expensive in limit I know players who will want to keep players in for the turn for that fact. After that it all comes down to pot odds.
For instance if you're holding AdQd, and the flop comes Qc5d6d. You obviously have top pair on the board with a flush draw. Even if the turn comes say a Kc. It comes down
again to pot odds, and what type of game. Is it .50/$1 PL, NL? 5/10, 10/20? In a .50/1, or 1/2,

I would expect to see some players stay in with rags and catch crap. That, to me, is the double edge sword of the game. It's great when you beat them for it; but, stings when you lose to someone playing J5os under the gun to a raise, re-raise, and a re-re-raise when you have AKs, and the flop comes AKQ(rainbow), turn a T..