Common scenario that I don't know how to deal with. - Page 3

DrPublo · #21 09-15-2004, 04:08 PM

I like calling the raise PF, betting the flop and folding to a raise (provided the money is deep enough...when its shallow you might as well get it all in PF).

The problem with reraising PF is that a tricky player will just call with AA, because once you reraise he can put you on a pretty narrow range of hands (QQ or better) which makes his flop play easy.

You could make the arugment that the same tricky player will just call your flop bet and then bet when you check the turn, except at that point
1. Your hand is less defined, because you didnt r/r preflop. , and
2. He's not always going to get as "tame" a flop as 993r (tame in the sense that given the PF action, you shouldn't have a 9). Any paint on the flop considerably complicates things for him.
Therefore, I think most players with AA in that position will be looking to take down the pot on the flop after you've already fired a pot-sized bet. If you call his push, well then thats gravy for him.

I also think playing it in this way gives you the best chance to get away from QQ. Getting away from KK would require a read, though.

The Doc

ZeeJustin · #22 09-15-2004, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was at the table for this hand. (revetseb) Don't remember exact details, but I believe u both got all in after the flop. He then turned over AA to your QQ. This was just one of those spots where it is hard either way. Probably should have laid it down when u didnt hit the set, but i can't/don't fault you too much for the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't even close to what happened.

ZeeJustin · #23 09-15-2004, 05:10 PM

I check called the flop. The turn was the 10 of clubs (3rd club). Seemed like a safe enough card for me, while scary for my opponent, so I decided to shove and give him a chance to call with a worse hand, or fold a better one. I thought I was putting him in a really tough spot.

He had TT and apolagized after the hand.

ZeeJustin · #24 09-15-2004, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you dont reraise preflop you are putting him on aa or kk and playing for a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horribly incorrect. If I reraise preflop, he's folding hands worse than mine, and playing hands that are better than mine. Not reraising is actually far more profitable if he has a hand like JJ or TT, so I am certainly not putting him on specifically AA or KK. You also can't forget about AK of course.

ZeeJustin · #25 09-15-2004, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should come out firing a pot sized bot on that flop. If he raises you all-in, then there is a very good chance your beat. If he flat calls then he may have JJ,1010, or AK. Come out aggressive when you get a favorable flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I agree. I don't bet into preflop raisors enough. Is this a situation where I should?

Ulysses · #26 09-15-2004, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is horribly incorrect. If I reraise preflop, he's folding hands worse than mine, and playing hands that are better than mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I have a lot of thoughts re: this hand, as it is indeed a very common spot to be in. A very good (but not great) hand, out of position.

I'll perhaps come back and talk about some of that stuff, but I don't feel like it right now.

One important comment, though. Your thinking above is not entirely appropriate. There are a lot of situations in NL where I know that by reraising I will only get my opponent to fold worse hands (now, he might call w/ some worse hands, but he's not folding better hands). In a lot of these situations, I don't mind that happening because I have a hand that will be very tough to play well on future streets if I'm out of position.

I am not specifically talking about this hand, Justin, but there are definitely many scenarios in NL where if your opponent has a worse hand than you it will be very hard to make much more money from him (and many times you will give him the opportunity to take the pot away from you) so you don't mind if he just folds and you get it over with early.

Ulysses · #27 09-15-2004, 05:35 PM

I largely (not 100% wrt this specific hand, but the general thought process he is using) agree w/ both of Nero's responses.

cockandbull · #28 09-15-2004, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you dont reraise preflop you are putting him on aa or kk and playing for a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horribly incorrect. If I reraise preflop, he's folding hands worse than mine, and playing hands that are better than mine. Not reraising is actually far more profitable if he has a hand like JJ or TT, so I am certainly not putting him on specifically AA or KK. You also can't forget about AK of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt be surprised if i am wrong, but how are you going to make this profit without position. if the button has jj or 1010 this is possibly one of the best flops you could see, but because of the fear of aa/kk you check/call the flop.

i think this is one of those times when you dont want to play for your stack. Reraising preflop is like calling on the flop, only you have a chance to take it down.

Nero · #29 09-15-2004, 10:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I reraise preflop, he's folding hands worse than mine, and playing hands that are better than mine. Not reraising is actually far more profitable if he has a hand like JJ or TT, so I am certainly not putting him on specifically AA or KK. You also can't forget about AK of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, this is pretty much exactly why you shouldn't re-raise pre-flop, IMO.

it is also why i think you cannot play the hand as you did post flop. you are conceding your stack to AA and KK, do you think you can offset this when he has JJ, TT, AK?

i think AA-TT and AK is a reasonable range of hands here, and its hard to let your hand go when you are ahead of this range, though i think this situation warrants it.

Nero · #30 09-15-2004, 10:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like calling the raise PF, betting the flop and folding to a raise (provided the money is deep enough...when its shallow you might as well get it all in PF).

[/ QUOTE ]

I would really like to here your thoughts on this line. I dont really understand how the hand would play out on the turn/river if the flop bet was just called by the PFR.

If folding to a raise, in my experience TT-JJ are more likely to raise your bet and KK-AA more likely to call as overcards arent as much of a concern. Though my experience is mostly live as opposed to online.