KK w/Ace on flop heads-up

[LowDown22]

That was my main reason for posting this. I was a bit hesistant about calling or raising. Here's what I decided at the time...

If he has an Ace and I raise he'll likely just call my bets from here thinking I too have an Ace and he may be behind, but he won't fold top pair heads-up.

If he has any other cards I am ahead and by calling will extract the Maximum from him by getting a bet on all streets. Raising will simply drive him out of the pot, but if he ever checks I will bet.

[davelin]

I thought I remembered a post on this forum where the Hero had KK, was heads-up and the flop came out AAJ rainbow. The replies came out that the Hero should just call-down on all streets in order to maximize winnings/minimize losses. Does that not apply here because of the single Ace?

[LowDown22]

I remember the same post but can't find it. That was the plan I was following though.

If I raise the flop the only cards that won't fold will be a pair of Aces or Queens most likely. All I really want to do is drive out a pair of Aces. But all other hands I want to stay in. So raising the flop will do exactly the opposite of what I want (ie drive out worse hands and leave me against the better hand, minimizing my win and maximizing my loss).

[golgo13sf]

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I remember the same post but can't find it. That was the plan I was following though.

If I raise the flop the only cards that won't fold will be a pair of Aces or Queens most likely. All I really want to do is drive out a pair of Aces. But all other hands I want to stay in. So raising the flop will do exactly the opposite of what I want (ie drive out worse hands and leave me against the better hand, minimizing my win and maximizing my loss).

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If he has any other cards I am ahead and by calling will extract the Maximum from him by getting a bet on all streets. Raising will simply drive him out of the pot, but if he ever checks I will bet.


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But you didn't show down, so what was the point of just calling then.

The only problem I have with this is calling doesn't let you get any information about your opponent's hand. Is it a weak Ace? JJ? TT? A set? KQ? Those are all possible hands. You say he's a decent player, he might lay down a weak Ace to a re-raise. I understand calling down to minimize losses, but you might as well not bother if you're not going to showdown, just fold the flop. The way I outlined playing it, you would have at least gotten to showdown for less money.

[LowDown22]

I understand your point. And I was completely prepared to make my call down until the second Q came on the river. At that point I had to re-evaluate the situation. There's no point in calling if I know I'm beat 90% of the time, it's -EV.

Against a maniac I would certainly call the river. But against a decent player, I'm quite confident that they wouldn't run a bluff on all streets with a low PP or a pair of 4's. Especially against a preflop raiser that appears to be calling the whole way. I do not put him on JJ or TT because he would raise preflop in this situation.

When I say decent .50/1 player, I do not mean he's capable of a top pair fold. He may fold Q's with enough pressure, but not the Aces.

[golgo13sf]

this is an interesting thread, so don't feel I am denigrating your play, just throwing ideas around.

I think the problem here was you trying build a nice pot and maybe win as opposed to just winning the pot period. Its a bad flop for you, the only way you should have just called would have been if you caught a set. Granted, this is in hindsight, but the calling just feels wrong.

Here's a few scenarios:

1)The way you played it: 2sb PF, 1sb Flop, 1bb turn, fold. 2.5bb total LOST

2)The same scenario except you call the river bet: 2sb PF, 1sb Flop, 1bb turn, 1bb river. 3.5bb total (Lost or won?)

3)The way I outlined: 2sb PF, 2sb Flop, check turn, 1bb river. 3bb total (Lost or won?)

4)The way I outlined, except bet the turn and check the river(assuming he goes for the check raise if he's got the Q's, and if you're playing the part of agressor, I'd use that agression against you. This is assuming he's got the Q and if he does he might fold on the turn, as you said he might. A weak ace is going to be the same outcome): 2sb PF, 2sb flop, 1bb turn, check river. 3bb total (win or lose?)

In those last three, the showdown could go either way (although you were probably cooked), but of those that went to showdown, my way was cheapest, and you get to showdown for 1/2bb more than your fold. 3 of the ways you had a chance to win the pot, even a small percentage, the way you played it was 0%. The only time you have a zero percent chance of winning without actually seeing your opponents cards is if you fold.

[unformed]

if i've got kk and there's an ace on the board, i'll be happy with everyone folding. of course, you might be able to win more, but by slowplaying, you're giving them the opportunity to catch something. KK is a good hand preflop, but not good enough to slowplay.

he could have an ace, and be betting top pair. maybe he has a queen or a pocket pair and is trying to find out if you have the ace. (Note: If I have a pocket pair and it's heads-up, I will almost always bet the flop. Most of the time it's folded to me.

He could also be on a straight draw (though unlikely) and betting on that hoping to make you fold. When the last queen comes, he knows he can automatically bet that and take the pot unless you have a queen. But you don't really know what he has; all you know is you are probably beat.

If you raised on the flop, he probably would have called with an ace, maybe reraised. Most likely he would have folded an underpair, and possibly folded a queen.

If he folds, well you got the pot. Good thing, since if he had a queen, he would have won.
If he reraises, you're probably beat and you should fold. (Maybe call and if the turn doesn't fit, fold ... but I'd probably just fold on a reraise.)
If he calls, he probably has an ace, although he could also have a set or maybe playing a queen, but unlikely. (You need to know if the player is a calling station.)

If he calls your raise, but bets the turn, you're probably beat. If he checks the turn, you should bet. This is where you know for sure what kind of a hand he has.

With two pair, a set, maybe top pair, he'll probably reraise. Maybe call and hope for a check-raise trap on the river.

He'll most likely fold the queen or a small pocket pair.

Regardless, if it comes down to the river you should check/fold.

by calling every street, you never had the opportunity to win the hand outright, never knew what kind of a hand he had, and were giving him control of the game as well as chances to hit better cards.

The other option you had was reraise the river, and play it like you have a queen, but with that low stakes if he had the ace he probably would have made a crying call simply on principle, even if he thought he was beat.

The only time I call every street is when I've got a monster hand and want to start raising/rereaising on the turn or river.

[LowDown22]

Well, I'm still a bit unsure of how I played this hand, river mainly now, but I did manage to find a similar hand posting by Ed Miller. And his response on page 7 of the thread.

QQ hand with K22 flop HU

[golgo13sf]

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Folding is way too weak... especially on Party, the BB will bet a flop like this with all sorts of hands. Naked aces, small pocket pairs, or even weaker hands. He might of course bet with a king or a deuce, but he often checks those hands. Your effective odds to the river are 4.5-to-2.5, so you need to win about 35-40% of the time to show a profit. You have the best hand here far more often than that... as much as 70-80% of the time I'd guess. Since this is a "way ahead or way behind" situation, you will also finish with the best hand about that often.

Raising is counter-productive. It tends to slow down a bluffer, and it just causes you to go off for two extra bets against a real hand. Even if you get 3-bet, you can't fold, which brings me to...

2. No folding!

Any of you that included the word "fold" as any part of your answer... raising the turn and folding to a 3-bet... betting and folding to a check-raise, etc., I think you are wrong.

I played a similar situation the day before, but (for various reasons) I decided to raise the turn instead of just call. My opponent 3-bet me.... with AJ, no pair, no draw. This is not an isolated occurrence.

You have to be REALLY careful about folding in these spots... especially on Party. In fact, if you suggested raising and folding to a 3-bet, you are almost certainly getting bluffed out of hands needlessly.



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Ok, I can see the reasoning there, and it applies very well to you, the thing is, did you see what he did that you didn't do? He called, he did NOT fold. So if you are determined to check/call you have to follow through with a river call if you have a reasonable chance of winning and K's definetly fit that description. I could see folding a busted flush draw or straight draw, but folding the K's there was just wrong.

[Daithi]

15% of the time he could have had a small pair that he would play that way. I'd call the river bet.

I'd raise the flop.