Flush Draws

[calidist]

Hi All. Long time reader, first time poster. Primarily play low to mid stakes on party.

I was curious what you all think about flush draws on later streets (6th and river) when you have four to the flush. This hands are particularly hard for me to play. What do you all consider when you are in this position and what guidelines do you use? Specifically, how many cards of the suit need to be live and what are the pot odds you need to confidently call on 6th?

Thanks a lot for your thoughts.

[Michael Davis]

By the time it gets to 6th street, the pot is generally so big, at least it should be, that a call is automatic even if there are few of your cards left. This is assuming you don't have overwhelming reason to believe you are drawing to a hand that can't win.

Check Konstantin Othmer's book for specifics.

-Michael

[BeerMoney]

Calid, this is a serious question, cause from your post it seems like you don't know the answer..

Do you know how to calculate odds?

[FeliciaLee]

Most of the time, you will never have to worry about this. Like Michael said, the pot is big, you're in. The great thing about Stud High, is that there is usually not much jamming on sixth, unless two premium hands get into a war, leaving you in the middle with a drawing hand. That doesn't occur very often. Usually you get to draw for one bet [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

It sounds like you are new to poker, and that is okay. We were all new once. If you get a little offended by the tone of certain replies, just remember that there are tons of legitimate posters out here willing to help. It is hard to convey intent on the Internet, and sometimes replies come off sounding a little harsh. I try not to do that at all, but even I am guilty, when maybe I was just trying to sound witty. Please stick around and ask whatever questions that arise.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Andy B]

By sixth street, calculating the odds of making your flush and comparing that to your pot odds is relatively simple. Say you're in a four-way pot, with the other four players having folded on third street. That means that you've seen a total of 22 cards--your two hole cards, the four door cards of the players who folded, and the sixteen cards that are still face-up on the table. Say that three cards in your flush suit have shown apart from the cards in your hand. That leaves six cards that can make your flush out of thirty unseen cards. The odds are therefore 4:1 against your making the flush. You're probably going to be getting more than 4:1 pot odds, in which should see that river card. I have neglected implied odds, which refers to bets that you might collect on the river, as well as the chance that you might make your flush and still lose. If you're up against likely trips, your flush draw loses a lot of its value. Unless you think a lot more quickly than I do, you won't have time to make this calculation. You might do calculations for several scenarios to get a feel for how live your hand must be to continue. For all practical purposes, though, if you have a live four-flush, you're seeing the river unless someone gives you a good reason not to.

[BeerMoney]

Cali, sorry if I came across like a donkey. All of the replies from Michael, Andy and Felicia were reallly solid.

As Felicia said also, sometimes tones can come across as being smug.

It sounds like you should really should really pick up a book like Theory of Poker by David Sklansky that covers this sort of topic.

Welcome aboard,

BeerMoney.

I think another intersting question is question is how to play an unimproved 3 flush on fourth street!

[Thor]

As far as I remember, Sklansky recomments to call most of the times, unless your opponents have made a very scary improvement like paired doorcard or straightflush card.