5K Taj tourney. Early hand where I got put to the test

[mr_jmac]

Hey,

How much exactly did your opponent push all-in for? Do you have the J of hearts? If your decision is a close one wouldn't these details matter?

Later,
JM

[MLG]

I thought I posited a reason as to why calling the flop wasnt that bad. I agree if you are convinced that he can only be drawing calling on the flop is bad. However, I'm not convinces that overall calling on the flop and then betting any turn is a bad play.


Also on a QJ9 flop the guy calling with the straight draw will have a 10. So, the 10 will pair him generally not complete his draw.

[Jim T]

I think the worst play was the weak 750 bet on the flop. You have both a flush draw AND a straight draw on the board yet you bet less than the pot. Why would you give them odds to call? Then you only re-raised 2000 into a 3000+ chip pot, AGAIN giving a draw odds to call (especially if there were any players with both draws, say an A8 of hearts). Yes, I know that he raised 4 big blinds to drive out hands like that, but this is early so the really loose players haven't been knocked out yet plus 200 is only 2% of the chipstacks.

If you had bet more on the flop to start out with, say 1700, he likely would have just called with TPTK. If he does raise, you push. You have a huge advantage over just about any two cards but QQ or KT.

Back to considering this without knowing the LP player's hand, a small bet from you of ~1000 makes him think that you are TRYING to keep him in the pot if he doesn't have the flush. When the T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hits, it could look even scarier to him than it does to you. If he goes over the top, then you fold.

This line has a number of advantages IMHO:

1. You maintain the momentum and make HIM have to make the tough decisions.
2. You are more likely to win the hand on the flop.
3. You give yourself a chance to win it on the turn.
4. You give yourself a better chance of seeing the river and possibly making your full house or even quads.
5. If he DOES force you to fold on the turn, you've only lost 2900 (200+1700+1000) vs 3700.

The only drawback is you are less likely to extract money from him over the course of the hand.

[SoBeDude]

Also on a QJ9 flop the guy calling with the straight draw will have a 10. So, the 10 will pair him generally not complete his draw.

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Doesn't that make even more of a case for reraising him on the flop?

[SoBeDude]

I think the worst play was the weak 750 bet on the flop. You have both a flush draw AND a straight draw on the board yet you bet less than the pot.

I bet 750 into a 825 pot. I essentially bet the pot, and he has no odds here to call with a draw.

And you seem to think that 1000 is a small bet, and he's going to call a 1700 bet with TP/TK.

Perhaps you missed that this is the First Round of the tourney? This was already by far, the biggest pot we've yet seen today. No one is stepping out here this early. Most bets and raises are in the 100-200 range. My 750 bet on the flop was the single largest bet so far for my table. These things matter.

And there is a fine line between extracting the most (something I want) and pushing my opponent out (something I don't if he's behind) when I have a big hand.

IMO, if I had bet 1700 on the flop, he'd have folded TP/TK and I make little money on my monster. He only has 200 invested and I'm TELLING him loudly that his hand is no good. This is not what I want.

But perhaps you're right in that my reraise was too small. But also, this was the first hand that the Orange chips had been tossed around. Me reraising two Orange chips got everyone's attention at the table and screamed MONSTER hand.

Back to considering this without knowing the LP player's hand, a small bet from you of ~1000 makes him think that you are TRYING to keep him in the pot if he doesn't have the flush.

wait first you're saying 1700, now 1000. Which do you think it should be and why? Also, do you think betting 1K instead of 750 would have really mattered here? I do not. But maybe he would just call the bigger bet?

Perhaps I should have bet out when the T hits. But any bet here must be an all-in due to the pot size and I might be way behind.

When the T hits, it could look even scarier to him than it does to you. If he goes over the top, then you fold.

Do you not think it possible that my opponent would Gamble when the Th hits when he picks up the flush and straight draws? You don't think he's capable of raising my turn bet all-in?

on that coordinated board, how can I call a raise on the turn, and given the pot size, what can I bet that will scare him out that doesn't pot-commit myself?

Thanks for the input.

-Scott

[BUCKS COUNTY, PA]

Scott can I ask you a question? If this were a $500 event rather than a $5000 event would you have played it the same way?

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Scott can I ask you a question? If this were a $500 event rather than a $5000 event would you have played it the same way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great question. I honestly think I would have though. either case I can't call for all my chips on that turn without a bigger hand than I hold. And I'm still reraising the flop but not pushing all-in.

-Scott

[Jim T]

"I bet 750 into a 825 pot. I essentially bet the pot, and he has no odds here to call with a draw. "

Huh?? If he has an OE straight draw, he has a 31.5% chance of hitting it on the turn or river. If he has a 4 flush, he has a 35% chance of hitting it. If he has some combination of the two, his odds are correspondingly higher.

Yet you bet 750 into an 825 pot, meaning that he has to risk 750 to win 1575 (ignoring implied odds, etc.). This gives him the 2:1 pot odds that either draw requires. The open ended straight draw probably wouldn't call (due to the possibility that he'd be beat by a flush even if he hit his draw), but a flush draw would be quite amenable to making that call, especially if he also has a belly buster straight draw or an overcard (he wouldn't necessarily put you on a set).

You obviously have a better read on the table than mine (which is non-existent), but don't tell me that you didn't give him the odds to call with a draw.

"And you seem to think that 1000 is a small bet, and he's going to call a 1700 bet with TP/TK. "

He raised you and then called your re-raise with just TP/TK didn't he?

"And there is a fine line between extracting the most (something I want) and pushing my opponent out (something I don't if he's behind) when I have a big hand.

IMO, if I had bet 1700 on the flop, he'd have folded TP/TK and I make little money on my monster. He only has 200 invested and I'm TELLING him loudly that his hand is no good. This is not what I want. "

I just like not losing with my monster hands, and when there are tons of cards out there that would seemingly beat my monster, I want to protect it as best I can. Not only can he beat you by catching a card, he can beat you by betting on a scare card (as you discovered).

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Huh?? If he has an OE straight draw, he has a 31.5% chance of hitting it on the turn or river. If he has a 4 flush, he has a 35% chance of hitting it. If he has some combination of the two, his odds are correspondingly higher.

Yet you bet 750 into an 825 pot, meaning that he has to risk 750 to win 1575 (ignoring implied odds, etc.). This gives him the 2:1 pot odds that either draw requires. The open ended straight draw probably wouldn't call (due to the possibility that he'd be beat by a flush even if he hit his draw), but a flush draw would be quite amenable to making that call, especially if he also has a belly buster straight draw or an overcard (he wouldn't necessarily put you on a set).


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WARNING:
MAJOR, MAJOR FLAW IN THE ABOVE MATH

first one to find it gets a holiday cookie from me.

-SossMan

[zaxx19]

Depends on what the hell he means by, "correspondingly higher" ,lol oh English language why hast thou forsaken me...