Ram and jam with poor multi-way hands?

[afs]

AA and KK don't weaken in a multiway pot, nevermind what HEFAP might claim in passing, at least according to this:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/mummert/poker/

... I'm inclined to believe them. QQ or AK are another thing altogether.

[tpir90036]

actually in that example you are in the big blind. you bet out on the flop and use the PF raiser to help you drive people out when he raises you.

there is an example of checking with aces though.... the idea being that if someone leads into you on the turn you can raise that bet and knock people out. otherwise the entire table will just check-call and be correct to do so.

there has been a lot of discussion on here about this section of HPFAP.... if you search through the archive i am sure you can dig up lots of good threads.

[rivered]

Someone said this was well played? Calling an inside straight draw on the turn with 2 flush draws possible? I can't imagine that ever being a good play.

[B Dids]

The point was that the player was getting correct odds to draw to the gutshot, not that it was necessarily a good play.

[UberSuperPlaya]

[ QUOTE ]
The point was that the player was getting correct odds to draw to the gutshot, not that it was necessarily a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's getting correct pot odds, why wouldn't it be a good play?

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point was that the player was getting correct odds to draw to the gutshot, not that it was necessarily a good play.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If he's getting correct pot odds, why wouldn't it be a good play?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's getting the correct odds to improve, but he can improve and still lose.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
Now going based on HPFAPs concept of manipulating pot sizes in loose games to make draws incorrect to go for, did he play this incorrectly?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Sklansky and Malmuth did players a very poor service by not explaining this concept further. But Sklansky has gone into it more on these forums.

Essentially, you should manipulate the pot odds only in certain situations. What it boils down to in low limit is forget it...push your edges and push em hard. The guy with the aces was absolutely correct raise PF and to get as many bets in as he could with his top set.

Damn, I couldn't find the url where Sklansky laid out the conditions. I thought I had it listed in my favorite threads but apparently not.

However, heres another one where
Sklansky adresses the issue again in less detail:

more on manipulating pot odds

--Zetack

[Zetack]

Here's sklanksy's take on manipulating pot odds:


Sklansky's Take #1

Apparently older threads have been moved to an archive server and won't show up on favorite threads anymore. Also, I don't think the search feature is working, or at any rate, working right, with older threads, whicy made this challenging to find.

--Zetack

Edit: I'm gonna be annoyed when I can no longer find some of Ed's posts...

[Thebram]

Zetack,

Thanks a lot for this, it really helps clear some stuff up.



Sam T,
[ QUOTE ]

He's getting the correct odds to improve, but he can improve and still lose.

[/ QUOTE ]
The way I calcualated it, after the turn based on my 3 clean outs to the nuts, I had odds to continue. (With help of implied odds)