(22) Am I missing something on how to play AK - Page 5

Slim Pickens · #41 10-24-2005, 03:13 PM

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Could you explain these numbers here? Which one is my over all ev if I push?

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It depends on the range of hands you think your opponent might have. Those numbers are from Poker Stove, which you can download and use for free. What I'm trying to point out there is that even against a fairly loose range, you're still less than 60% to win if you get called. Since you folding equity is so low, I don't think pushing is profitable enough to do.

However, I see an excellent implied odds argument for just calling here and seeing a flop. I dislike folding, but not that much.

pooh74 · #42 10-24-2005, 03:20 PM

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You know what, the best thing about this hand is that whether you push or fold, over the long haul, its not going to be THAT much of a difference.

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I agree over the long haul the difference will be negligible. so, i guess it really lies more in your tolerance for busting out early. If you dont mind getting busted early, then by all means get your chips in. but, if it bothers you and ends up affecting your play, then fold it. Its a matter of choice. but i think that because the debate is pretty evenly divided, that there is no clear cut answer...just preference.

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Yeah, I think the whole impasse here is the ol' hourly rate/ROI issue...if you like more $per hour then push, if you are concerned about that stupid arbitrary # called ROI which, by the way, you cannot blow on beer and ladies, then folding is good for you. I like beer and ladies.

So, basically I made this whole issue into a macho thing...so for all of you who said fold, its only because you lack a penis...

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Scuba Chuck · #43 10-24-2005, 03:34 PM

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You guys crack me up.

To the coin-flip-assumers: either one of these players could have anything, early in the 22s. One of them with a pair is *worst* case, and even that's not so bad.

To the "I can outplay these suckers later" crowd: Just how many premium hands do you think you're getting in a shallow-stack, fast-structure SNG?

And to top it off, you've got the raiser comfortably covered in chips.

I auto-push this, and it's very, very easy.

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FYI, you get a hand with the strength of AJ every 10 hands (statistically speaking).

#44 10-24-2005, 03:39 PM

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You guys crack me up.

To the coin-flip-assumers: either one of these players could have anything, early in the 22s. One of them with a pair is *worst* case, and even that's not so bad.

To the "I can outplay these suckers later" crowd: Just how many premium hands do you think you're getting in a shallow-stack, fast-structure SNG?

And to top it off, you've got the raiser comfortably covered in chips.

I auto-push this, and it's very, very easy.

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FYI, you get a hand with the strength of AJ every 10 hands (statistically speaking).

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AND...we are in level 1...i just dont know where the fire is?

pooh74 · #45 10-24-2005, 03:52 PM

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You guys crack me up.

To the coin-flip-assumers: either one of these players could have anything, early in the 22s. One of them with a pair is *worst* case, and even that's not so bad.

To the "I can outplay these suckers later" crowd: Just how many premium hands do you think you're getting in a shallow-stack, fast-structure SNG?

And to top it off, you've got the raiser comfortably covered in chips.

I auto-push this, and it's very, very easy.

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FYI, you get a hand with the strength of AJ every 10 hands (statistically speaking).

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But how often do you think you can stack a guy who SOOOO often you have dominated PF? -I am again assuming he is that kind of player...obviously he can have AA here too...but I really feel worst case scenario here is a flip and that won't be enough of the time to make this edge less profitable than the late game one.

#46 10-24-2005, 04:00 PM

i see donks raising hands like A7-AJ like this more often than he is willing to overbet a monster (JJ+).

i think you're giving the guy too much respect.

pooh74 · #47 10-24-2005, 04:03 PM

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i see donks raising hands like A7-AJ like this more often than he is willing to overbet a monster (JJ+).

i think you're giving the guy too much respect.

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You replied to me but I dont think you meant to...because I'm the one NOT giving him respect.

Bigwig · #48 10-24-2005, 04:07 PM

Nobody is concerned about the UTG limper? Without that limper, the hand changes entirely.

curtains · #49 10-24-2005, 04:07 PM

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Also note that a player at any level would be CORRECT to pay off on an ace high or king high flop w QQ in this spot, with only 395 behind. Not because of pot odds of course, but because you cant just allow your opponent to stop+go, and if checked to, you must bet in such a giant pot .

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I don't follow this. If I have QQ in this situation (395 behind, A or K on flop, checked to) I am checking behind. If I bet and he has no A or no K, he's going to fold and I get nothing. If he has an A or a K, he calls and I'm toast. If I check behind, when he has an A or K I still lose on the turn or river, but I would have lost if I bet on the flop anyway. If he has no A and no K he may bluff on the turn or the river and then I win something where if I had bet the flop I would have won nothing.

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The idea is that the pot is gigantic compared to your stack and thus you should be less apt to give free cards, especially since your opponent might not bluff if they have nothing anyway. In any case that wasn't my point, my point was that all your money is going to go in the pot anyway with QQ and an overcard on the flop, and that doesn't make you a "donk"

curtains · #50 10-24-2005, 04:09 PM

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We do realize our opponent only has lkie 400 chips after the raise? Also we might WANT our opponent to call as they could easily have something like AQ, AJ, KQ who knows....worst thing to do is call and fold on the flop when your opponent whiffed with AJ and you missed with AK.

I'm not willing to flat call for 125 in a tiny pot with the plan of folding for 400 more if I miss, aganist a range that could be quite wide.

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I guess I'm folding flops like QJx, but that's about it... probably not all undercards since I can easily put him on AQ or AJ. The problem his raise causes you is that now there's no way to get any information about his hand without putting him all-in.

I still don't quite get why you don't like folding if you miss? You are calling 125 to win 1100 if you hit and lose 125 if you miss, if you fold every time. Bad players at the 22's aren't laying down QQ on a king-high (and sometimes not an ace-high) board if you check the flop.

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Calling 125 to win 1100? This math isnt even close to correct. And I don't know why you keep stressing the "bad players arent folding QQ on a king-high flop", because I wouldn't fold in that spot with a king high or ace high flop and I don't consider myself a bad player.