pocket pair preflop with a poster and a pack of players

[USDaniels]

[ QUOTE ]
310,404 games 84.561 secs 3,670 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 10.4570 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 2: 10.4721 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 10.5759 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 10.5534 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 10.5288 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 6: 10.5540 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 7: 10.5223 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 8: 10.4989 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 9: 15.8375 % [ 00.15 00.00 ] { 8s8h }

+

many opponents going to river


+

raise

=

$$$

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting (to me) because it's not what I would have guessed. I would have voted limp because yes, I thought we'd be playing for set value. Obviously, I'd have been wrong.

So we have a decent edge against 8 randoms. But what happens if you run 88 against 3-5 hands all with at least one card higher than an 8? That more accurately describes the situation, right? I guess it depends on whether people are limping with complete junk, or half-junk?

[Rev. Good Will]

I think 88 can go both ways (SH or multi) and I just want more money in the pot against crappy opponents

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]
i'll just look at it like this: if someone has AA-TT they would 3-bet so figuring them to call with some Ax-rag or suited overcard something, they have to suck out on me first, so no i don't think i'm playing for set value at this point. why do we assume that we're already behind?

we raise and cap TT for the same reasons: we might be behind to AA-JJ, but there are other hands we're ahead of. preflop we raise with the best hands to get in the money before people know the flop will miss them plus if we hit our set we'll get lots of action to make up for the times we get sucked out on. plus the times we flop a straight draw. and with every overcard you fold, you gain more outs rather than let suited connectors, other pocket pairs, and weak OCs in for cheap getting better odds by your limp. i'm willing to risk the 1 extra SB now. this is the way i see this hand, but others may view differently.

but one thing i think we all can agree on: where the money is lost and/or won is postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my concern is seeing a flop 5 handed with 88, the inevitable overcards which will definitely come, and how to play my 2nd or even just as much likely, a 3rd pair.

There will definitely be chances to protect your hand on the flop to clear out unpaired overcards, but if with the opponents described, I don't see how we can get better pairs to fold, which is why I like playing a hand like 88 for set value.

About your comment about a hand sucking out on you, with 4 opponents on the flop, I'm fairly sure someone will "suck out" oh you, considering that an A,K,Q,J or T is bound to help one of your four opponents. So I still feel like the only way to play this hand is for set value.

Now, if you feel that getting 4 opponents is enough to get odds for playing for a set, than that's a different story. I just don't feel like you're going to fold out a higher pair that is flopped, which is very likely with multiple opponents.

[USDaniels]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 88 can go both ways (SH or multi) and I just want more money in the pot against crappy opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, right you are. I just downloaded pokerstove (don't know why I asked the question when I could've answered it myself). Against some mostly crappy hands but all with overcards involved, 88 still kicks butt:

---
8,819,725,824 games 44.968 secs 196,133,379 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 26.9088 % 26.88% 00.03% { 88 }
Hand 2: 21.7065 % 21.68% 00.03% { K4s }
Hand 3: 10.3710 % 09.72% 00.65% { J7s }
Hand 4: 20.2831 % 20.26% 00.03% { A6o }
Hand 5: 20.7306 % 20.08% 00.65% { QJo }
-----

Move one or two up to have two overcards (but still questionable hands -- K9o or QTo, for example) and the edge starts to diminish quickly. It takes about three off-suit two overcard hands to over take 88...all the better reason to raise and possibly knock out some of these questionable holdings.

[milesdyson]

we should raise 87 suited here too right?

43,304 games 32.281 secs 1,341 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 13.4927 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { 8c7c }
Hand 2: 10.5295 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 11.0923 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 10.9962 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 10.7142 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 6: 10.6451 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 7: 10.7902 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 8: 10.9754 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 9: 10.7644 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }

[Reqtech]

[ QUOTE ]


Move one or two up to have two overcards (but still questionable hands -- K9o or QTo, for example) and the edge starts to diminish quickly. It takes about three off-suit two overcard hands to over take 88...all the better reason to raise and possibly knock out some of these questionable holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]


You're right, but this exercise stated that you'd get 2 or 3 cold callers. (probably a couple of which have overcards)

[Guruman]

allright, who folded?! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Rev. Good Will]

[ QUOTE ]
we should raise 87 suited here too right?

43,304 games 32.281 secs 1,341 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 13.4927 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { 8c7c }
Hand 2: 10.5295 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 11.0923 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 10.9962 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 10.7142 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 6: 10.6451 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 7: 10.7902 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 8: 10.9754 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 9: 10.7644 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { random }

[/ QUOTE ]

I see the point you're making on just posting pokerstove stats, but it's too late for me to include "and probably will hold up UI against 2-3 poor playing CCers" in my post

who is the chick in your avatar?


err... yeah and limp, then set or forget.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,086,008 games 0.031 secs 35,032,516 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 22.6952 % 22.65% 00.04% { 8c8h }
Hand 2: 24.7351 % 24.69% 00.04% { QhJc }
Hand 3: 26.6254 % 26.58% 00.04% { KdTs }
Hand 4: 25.9443 % 25.90% 00.04% { Ah9c }


^--- It may as well be this cause your folding to aggression with any card above 8 there anyway. And if there isnt an 8, are you really gonna keep going on a 4 card straight below 8? This is impossible to play from this position without setting.