Give up or stab at the flop/turn???? My dilemma with LIMIT holdem

[Indiana]

Many thanks in advance for viewing this thread. Im a NL player and I've heard many say that NL is harder than Limit, but I think it just depends on the situation. One situation I've really struggled with is what to do with an "Anna Kournakova" type of hand after raising before the flop. Do I need to continue or slow down??? Here are two examples. What would you do for each hand?
Hand #1:

10/20 game at the Bellagio. I raise it up with AK spades in MP behind two early limpers. The button and the two limpers come along. The pots got $95 in it and four players. The flop comes down J 8 4 all diamonds and its checked to me. What do I do?

Hand #2:
Another 10/20 game, Indiana riverboat. Again two players limp in EP and this time I raise it up in EP with AJ spades. The CO seat and two limpers call. Again there is $95 in the pot and 4 players. Flop comes down Kh 8s 4c for a nice rainbow. Its checked to me, what do I do?

Just not sure how to proceed in limit with this many players in with me.

Thanks again in advance,

Indy

[La Brujita]

Check both hands.

[A_C_Slater]

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Check both hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


And fold to any bet.


Hand#1 -- Someone here will have a diamond that they won't fold. You are drawing to 4 possibly unclean outs. This seems like an easy fold to me and I wouldn't think anything of it.


Hand#2-- This hand is bit closer in terms of betting, but the King ruins everything. An easy bet on this flop if you had two overs and backdoor flush.

[Indiana]

Caesars Indiana,not Indy. It's down near Louisville on the Ohio River. I get down there for tourneys sometimes and play cash games after I get busted. Its nice, but nothing like Cali/Vegas. Most of the poker action around here is illegal stuff, and we have them on about every corner of the city.

Indy

I dont reccomend raising PF and not betting when checked to. Are you afraid that you'll get check-raised? Well, if you bet and get check-raised from EP, I'd release these hands. Otherwise, I would bet the flop and check the turn UI, in both hands.

[bernie]

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I dont reccomend raising PF and not betting when checked to.

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Thre are many times when it is correct to raise preflop and check the flop.

b

[highlife]

hand 1 - check, fold the turn unless a A/K non diamond hits.

hand 2 - bet and call a checkraise, fold the turn UI.

how did you play 10/20 holdem at the bellagio? or was that just a hypothetical?

[Indiana]

Sorry, it wasnt the bellagio. Little confused, I believe both of these hands were here in Indiana (I'm trying to reconstruct them both as best as I can). I do believe that the Bellagio games I've played were 15/30. I checked both of these hands and they were both stolen from me by the late position player. I think I'm giving up too much.

Indy

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Sorry, it wasnt the bellagio. Little confused, I believe both of these hands were here in Indiana (I'm trying to reconstruct them both as best as I can). I do believe that the Bellagio games I've played were 15/30. I checked both of these hands and they were both stolen from me by the late position player. I think I'm giving up too much.

Indy

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First of all, if you checked the flop against 3 opponents every time you missed after raising with two overcards, you would never be giving up much. Against specifically 3 opponents whether to bet or check after you miss the flop is a very close decision. In hand 1, I would check and fold the flop, but against 2 or less opponents I would bet here, since if no one has a diamond or top pair, I may be able to pick up the pot, but with 3 opponents the probabilty that someone has a calling hand is just too high to warrant a bet. In Hand 2, with 4 opponents or more this is an easy check, with 2 or less this is an easy bet, with 3 opponents its close but I think you should still bet and heres why. Since you raised preflop, you could easily have a king and your opponents know this, also, there are almost no draws your opponents can call this flop on so there is a small but significant chance you can pick up this pot with one flop bet. To be precise, if your flop bet will pick up the pot greater than 9.5% of the time than you should bet, and against most opponents this bet will be correct. Also, to digress a bit, against 3 opponents the texture of a flop is extremely important. In hand 2 I told you to bet on a K84r, but if you changed that flop to K94r, I wouldve told you to check and fold. Do you see why? there are now too many common drawing hands that will call you like QJ, JT, QT, combined with made hands like J9,T9,98,Kx,4x, given all these combinations a bet on the flop is unlikely to pick up the pot against 3 opponents, and plus if you do bet and get called in one spot you will likely feel compelled to bet again hoping that your opponent may have one of those weak draws that he will now fold which means that instead of investing one small bet you will often find yourself investing 1.5 big bets to see if you can take this pot down which is usually not a profitable situation for you. Also the best books on how to play overcards IMO are "Middle limit holdem" "small stakes holdem" and "internet texas holdem".

[Indiana]

Thanks guys for the great responses. Great posters here.

Indy