Blind defense?

baronzeus · #1 08-11-2005, 05:23 PM

Just sat down a few orbits. This guy is loose preflop.

Can I get a raise in here? Or fold?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.16 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

MrTeddyKGB · #2 08-11-2005, 05:30 PM

without a read I would call down. I would not raise, way ahead/behind.

JrJordan · #3 08-11-2005, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
without a read I would call down. I would not raise, way ahead/behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a little different than your standard WA/WB situation. There's a very good chance button could be raising this flop with a diamond, PP<AA, etc. On this board, they're going to be hard pressed to fold to a turn c/r since they'll either have odds to draw, or they won't believe it on a scary board like this. Since they won't necessarily fold to our increased aggression when behind, we can throw in a raise for value when we're ahead, which is the majority of the time IMO.

MrTeddyKGB · #4 08-11-2005, 05:41 PM

I would raise the turn if I did not 3 bet pre-flop, (I would not usually with A3)

JrJordan · #5 08-11-2005, 05:35 PM

There's been a bit of discussion here lately about 3-betting some more marginal defending hands, such as a low Ax. My standard has usually been A7/A8+ before I start 3-betting, but I can't say its a bad play. I may be implementing this a bit more in the future.

I don't like just calling the flop and turn bets. I think you're ahead the far majority of the time and can raise for value. I'd smooth call the flop intending to c/r any non-diamond turn. This lets you charge an extra BB for a diamond draw, and you have the added benefit that a lot of hands beating you can't 3-bet because of the scare board (and if they do it's a pretty easy fold if he's not overly tricky).

baronzeus · #6 08-11-2005, 05:49 PM

I don't understand why I wouldn't 3bet here. Against most of this guys stealing range I am golden. What is the theory behind not raising?

sublime · #7 08-11-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why I wouldn't 3bet here. Against most of this guys stealing range I am golden. What is the theory behind not raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

your out of position

666 · #8 08-11-2005, 06:02 PM

And you dont have a very +EV hand, if it is even +EV at all. I think you also have a very small equity advantage as well. When you win, (ace flops or neither one of you hit the board) you are not going to win much, as the original blind stealer will fold quickly, but when you lose, you will lose a lot (usually to a better ace). I like the fact that 3-betting gives you the initiative in the hand, but against anyone with decent blind stealing standards, you are probably behind. This is why I dont like 3 betting this PF although if the villian is a total donk then its a great move.

JrJordan · #9 08-11-2005, 06:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why I wouldn't 3bet here. Against most of this guys stealing range I am golden. What is the theory behind not raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

your out of position

[/ QUOTE ]

This is similar to a blind battle debate we had a couple days ago regarding position. Suppose SB open limps, BB raises, and SB calls preflop. Assume SB checks this flop. BB is going to bet this approximately 98% of the time. It's standard operating procedure. SB knows this. This is why it's easy to set up flop checkraises since there's almost no chance of it getting checked through. Here's my point: SB has position on this flop in a twisted way. SB knows BB is betting autobetting this flop, so he can plan his flop action knowing when he checks that BB will bet. Even though BB is acting, SB has the initiative of what he wants to do with the hand. The position situation is fairly similar in a blind battle like this. With a marginal hand PF that doesn't really gain much value from a flop 3-bet, a smooth call gives the out of position player some great initiatives to control the pot.

Look at the flip side if you 3bet here and the flop comes noA,noA,noA. You're betting this flop the same 98% of the time. You have the initiative, but are really in a bind if he does anything but fold on the flop in what's now a fairly decent sized pot.

More of a ramble than anything, but I think it's worth considering.

sublime · #10 08-11-2005, 06:07 PM

i am all for gaining initiative preflop (i have to, cuz i suck postflop) but this is taking it to far. there are some guys i fold this against, and by some i mean more than i can count on my hands.