Party 30/60: raised on the turn again

[34TheTruth34]

Here is an area where I'm having a lot of trouble:

Party 30/60, I am in the BB with 76s. two folds, An extemely loose passive player limps in next (he'd raise with his good hands) everyone folds to the CO who raises. Button and SB fold, I call, LP calls. three players.

Flop Q-Q-6 rainbow. It's checked to the CO who bets, I check-raise, loose player folds, CO calls. Heads up

Turn 4. I bet he raises. My guess is that this player is a solid, aggressive player (1000 hands, 20/10/2/44 WSD). His turn aggression is 2.8.

What's your plan?

[mike l.]

fold he has a Q or a pocket pair he really likes too often to make calling right.

someone earlier in bk's 99 hand was talking about once you get the fish out go ahead and go into check-call mode. sure you risk giving a free card but you dont get put to the test with a raise either. now for bk's hand that did not apply because of the opponent he was against, but in this case i think it's an option worth considering. there should be a name for this play of getting it heads up with the intention of check-calling down against a tougher opponent you dont want to be tested by.

[34TheTruth34]

thanks for responding. You seem to like both folding and check-calling down. Which do you think is better against this particular player?

[mike l.]

"1000 hands, 20/10/2/44 WSD"

he's a pretty tough customer. he usually has it. fold.
but change the stats a little and maybe this check-call idea is a good one?

there's one more thing here though. when you check the turn after getting it heads up and the guy has let's say AK he will oftentimes not bet. youve thrown water on the fire and it now looks like you have a hand you want to get to showdown with. some of these okay tight players (and again i dont know if this guy is better than ok or what) are looking to keep variance down so they gladly take the free card. but they might be smart/brave enough to raise the turn figuring you to be good enough to fold a 6 w/ hands you beat. you see? it seems like a contradiction but i think it makes sense.

this is an extension of when youre in a pot on the river and someone has been betting into you the whole way and some nothing card comes on the river and now your opponent checks. they are oftentimes suddenly checking with the intention of calling because they have a hand they see as okay showdown value but that would hate to get raised. so by doing this on the turn you first explain with the c/r on the flop that you have something and it's vulnerable and yes it's probably the y on a xxy board, and then you confirm that you plan to show it down as cheaply and carefully as possible by surprising them with a donk check on the turn. so now they go into give up mode with their AK and you find the value bet on the river or whatever.

donk check? it's the same idea as the bet but it's just with a check...

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
"1000 hands, 20/10/2/44 WSD"

he's a pretty tough customer. he usually has it. fold.
but change the stats a little and maybe this check-call idea is a good one?

[/ QUOTE ]
In this particular case, I agree with Mike that betting the turn and folding to a raise is likely the right strategy. The BB exposed his hand by check-raising the flop, so one could make an argument that the opponent might attempt to exploit this and raise the turn with AK or something like that. And, in fact, it's almost certainly right for him to do this some small fraction of the time. But I think this move requires the opponent to know the BB pretty well and to know that he's at least capable of folding a 6 here. So the bottom line is that I think a TAG CO will very rarely raise the turn with a worse hand.

Now if you make the CO into a LAG, check-calling might now become the correct play because though it would truly suck to get raised on the turn, the BB cannot fold because he's no longer sure that the opponent has him beat. And the best part is that a LAG CO is now far more likely to bet a worse hand when checked to.

Interesting hand!

[mike l.]

sorry i changed my post and added a lot please check it out.

[34TheTruth34]

this is interesting. as I was typing my response to you, he played the following hand:

a player open-raised in EMP the following stats:

162/22/15/2.2/44 WSD.

The tough player from the original hand cold called from the CO (?) and I called out of the BB with 86s.

Flop Q-J-4 rainbow

I check, EMP bets, tough player calls, I fold.

Turn 3. EMP checks, tough player bets, EMP calls.

River 4. EMP checks, tough player bets, EMP calls.

Tough player has KTo and EMP takes it with TT.


I must be doing something terribly wrong...

[mike l.]

first off that guy's not tough he's a donk. he may have some natural skill but he's clearly not at all educated about how to play hold em. in short he's "trying to play well". problem is he has to make it up while he goes. it takes exactly one hand like the KTo to verify this.

secondly the TT guy is on crack as well. a Q and a J are the two most likely cards for a typical mid limit preflop cold caller to have. you check and fold the turn and it's not close.

his turn check is a donk check though.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
this is interesting. as I was typing my response to you, he played the following hand:

a player open-raised in EMP the following stats:

162/22/15/2.2/44 WSD.

The tough player from the original hand cold called from the CO (?) and I called out of the BB with 86s.

Flop Q-J-4 rainbow

I check, EMP bets, tough player calls, I fold.

Turn 3. EMP checks, tough player bets, EMP calls.

River 4. EMP checks, tough player bets, EMP calls.

Tough player has KTo and EMP takes it with TT.


I must be doing something terribly wrong...

[/ QUOTE ]
A few comments here. First, I don't think 86s is playable in that situation for a raise, but whatever. Second, the tough player's preflop call is terrible. If he really wants to play that hand against a slightly LAGgish EMP raiser, he should 3-bet, but this is really an easy fold. Third, do you think the CO would have raised if the EMP guy had bet the turn?

[DanZ]

This kind of play comes up VERY often in hi-lo games, where any pot that's 3 or more players will often get capped on each street up to (and perhaps including) the end. It can be useful in a 1 - winner games, however, both when you are drawing (esp. if pairing can also win) and when you have a vulnerable "made" mediocrity in a large pot.

It will come up much more often in a holdem if the game is agressive, and particularly loose-aggressive. There are several reasons for this. Perhaps there's an essay here somewhere...