Turn decision
 

3/6 6 max.

limper is decent, somewhat loose pf. My only note on him was that 'raisd flp w/ str8t draw vs my pfr'

SB was a terrible lag, he would get aggressive then if played back at he'd fold. He was the reason I was at the table.

ok the hand:

1 limper to me, I raise AK in the CO, BTN folds, SB calls, BB folds, limper calls.

flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

limper checks, I bet, SB raises, limper calls 2 cold, I 3bet, SB calls, now limper caps, I call, and SB folds

turn: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

limper checks, I ....

Re: Turn decision
 

I'm definitely checking behind. It's possible he's on a straight draw but I can't see him call/capping with much you beat now that the flush came in. I'm thinking check the turn and call a river bet as there's a chance he bets the river with a worse ace or a busted draw.

Edit: Congrats on moving up btw [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Turn decision
 

Check. Too much action on the flop. Flush draw just came in. Cold calling looks like a draw.

Re: Turn decision
 

I'd be inclined to bet here, and fold if the limper check-raises. I think there's a good chance you're ahead of the LAGgy SB. I don't understand what the limper is doing (cold-calls two bets, then caps the 3-bet?) but I don't want to miss value from the SB, or give a free card to a naked [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

(I'm assuming you don't have the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]...)

Re: Turn decision
 

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(I'm assuming you don't have the K...)


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nope, no [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s

Re: Turn decision
 

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I'm definitely checking behind. It's possible he's on a straight draw but I can't see him call/capping with much you beat now that the flush came in. I'm thinking check the turn and call a river bet as there's a chance he bets the river with a worse ace or a busted draw.



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I really really thought he had the frush, but I didn't know if I should bet/fold to a raise, or check. If I check, do I call a bet, b/c I think he is betting here like 99% of the time.

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Edit: Congrats on moving up btw

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thanks, I'm still playing some 2/4 though.

Re: Turn decision
 

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I'd be inclined to bet here, and fold if the limper check-raises.

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I thought about this line.
The question then is, why not check thru and call a river bet. This way I still get to see a showdown, and it only costs me the 1 BB.

Or, if I really think he has me beat, should I check the turn and fold to a river bet.

Re: Turn decision
 

I'm pretty terrified of the limper here. I like check/calling and watching him flip 55/77

Re: Turn decision
 

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I'd be inclined to bet here, and fold if the limper check-raises.

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I thought about this line.
The question then is, why not check thru and call a river bet. This way I still get to see a showdown, and it only costs me the 1 BB.


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Ugh -- I completely misread the action in this hand and didn't see that SB had folded on the flop. I also thought he magically shifted positions and was going to act after you. Anyway...

Checking behind definitely looks better when it's just the two of you. But it does have the disadvantage of giving free cards to someone who could have up to 12 outs to beat you, if you're ahead. I don't know -- it depends on whether you think it's you or him who's drawing here.

Re: Turn decision
 

This is nutty. One the one hand, you can check behind, call a river bet and see a showdown for 1 bet. On the other, it looks like he made two-pair or a set on the flop, and is afraid you've got the flush, so if you bet he miiiiiight fold, if he raises you can pretty safely fold yourself, and if he just calls you might get a showdown for the same price as the first option.

Bet.

Re: Turn decision
 

I think he is folding a hand that beats you pretty much never. If we feel that we can safely fold to a c/r, then I think betting is good. And if we know he has a flush then a fold is good. But what if he has A5 or something we're folding in a 10BB pot with a buttload of outs.

Re: Turn decision
 

I think a slightly loose player is taking a hand he liked enough to cap the flop to the showdown here heads up almost every time, he's just not betting it. I think our odds are a lot better if we check behind and hope for a K/9. A 7 may even help us if he has A5. An ace will also help against 75.

The only hands I can think of we might be ahead of are a strangely played AQ/AJ, splitting with AK and ahead of 64o. I don't think we're good often enough to call the river bet if we have any respect for the opponent, but I'd probably call because I tend to underestimate my opponents [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Turn decision
 

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This is nutty. One the one hand, you can check behind, call a river bet and see a showdown for 1 bet. On the other, it looks like he made two-pair or a set on the flop, and is afraid you've got the flush, so if you bet he miiiiiight fold, if he raises you can pretty safely fold yourself, and if he just calls you might get a showdown for the same price as the first option.

Bet.


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I think you reasoning is good here. If we bet the turn and he just calls, your checking the river?

I just don't know if he can fold this turn to 1 bet, I have not seen him make any 'big laydowns,' so it's tough to say.

Either way it's probably close. I just wasn't sure I was ahead here very often. I think I should fold the river to 1 bet. What do you think? (assuming you check the turn like I did).

River
 

River: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Limper bets, I ....

Re: River
 

I think I would call. I think our turn check might have induced a bluff from a worse ace. This might be a leak on my part though.

Re: River
 

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I think I would call. I think our turn check might have induced a bluff from a worse ace. This might be a leak on my part though.


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I agree that in a normal situation a check on the turn may induce a bluff, bet villian has shown a lot of strength so far, so I'm not sure how often he has a weaker A. I think he check on the turn was more him wanting to check raise me then him showing weakness, but I could be wrong. By checking the turn I have no way of knowing. Meh, maybe I should have bet/folded the turn.

Re: River
 

Yeah I had misread the action about limper capping the flop. Who knows. I don't like betting the turn b/c that cap likely means either flush draw or two pair/set. Take our free card to try to improve over two pair I think. Which probably means you can fold the river.

Re: Turn decision
 

The more I think about it the more I think checking the turn and folding the river unimproved is the best play. I don't think we can get a better hand to fold to a turn bet and I don't think we have the best hand nearly often enough to call on the river without a donktastic read.

Re: Turn decision
 

check/call river bet

Re: Turn decision
 

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The more I think about it the more I think checking the turn and folding the river unimproved is the best play. I don't think we can get a better hand to fold to a turn bet and I don't think we have the best hand nearly often enough to call on the river without a donktastic read.


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Yea this was basically my thinking on the river. I paused for like 15 seconds and hit the call button, only to be shown the frush. Damn. I don't know if this could be a leak or not, but I just hate folding on the river for 1 bet. If you haven't seen it yet, in the mid/high forums they are discussing folding for 1 bet in a big pot on teh river when you are real sure your behind, check it out. Something I have been pondering the last month or two.
Is it ever going to be such a mistake that it could change your overall earn. Compared to folding for 1 bet when you fold the best hand?

Re: Turn decision
 

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Yea this was basically my thinking on the river. I paused for like 15 seconds and hit the call button, only to be shown the frush. Damn. I don't know if this could be a leak or not, but I just hate folding on the river for 1 bet. If you haven't seen it yet, in the mid/high forums they are discussing folding for 1 bet in a big pot on teh river when you are real sure your behind, check it out. Something I have been pondering the last month or two.
Is it ever going to be such a mistake that it could change your overall earn. Compared to folding for 1 bet when you fold the best hand?

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I've been reading those discussions as well (there was an astroglide post a few months about this too). The main argument is that this is a decision like any other decision you make - it's no more of a mistake to fold on the river than it is to fold on the turn (except that the bet size is 1/2). When you call in these situations sure sometimes you win a pot you would have folded the best hand in. But you're probably calling in 10 other situations where you are clearly beaten and essentially this can turn into a big leak (a mistake you have many opportunities in a session to make). In the long term it could be profitable to fold a winner if you also fold 10 losing hands in doing so.

I think the idea of the Ed Miller post (don't fold for 1 bet in a big pot) is that most new players play scared. When the fourth flush card comes in and they are bet into they throw away their set thinking their lone opponent must have a flush. Since this is such a great bluffing opportunity where 1 bet can take down a large pot it is important to call with such a strong hand.

In this example, a flop call/cap would make for a very expensive bluff and is far more likely to be a made hand afraid to scare away customers. The 9 completes the flush and one of the possible oesd's, so the only hand a reasonable opponent could have logically played this way is 64 - and it's wishful thinking that he would have limped in with this hand.

For the record I call these too much as well.

Re: Turn decision
 

If limper is properly aggressive pf, we don't care about giving a free card. He probably raises any offsuit ace he'd play. If he has a suited ace, it's either a flush by now or he's not getting one. He might have a set. He might have 2-pair. He might have something less obvious, but I think we're in trouble.

The pot is big enough that I plan to call a river bet after checking through the turn. Hopefully the combined chances of overplaying something strange + improving is enough to make it profitable. Whatever. I just can't see folding TPTK for one more bet, especially after the strange flop action.