A comment on posting
 

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] this forum. It's possibly the best strategy forum on the Internet. However, there is one thing that frustrates me that we'd be better off without. It's posts with little substance to them in places where substance is needed. Some of the posts in my KQo thread are a good example. When a thread reaches a certain size, coming in and saying "raise preflop" adds nothing to the conversation.

Here are some examples I saw today.

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i spent a lot of thinking about this and i think you should bet the river

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That was the entire post. No elaboration was ever given at any point in the thread. It should have been given in that post.

Here's another example.

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Not raising the flop is awful

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That's from B Dids' thread. That thread had around thirty posts when that post was made. It's obvious there is debate going on and in particular the debate is exactly about what to do on the flop.

Some spots are obvious and little elaboration is needed. But most of the time people are posting spots that gave them trouble or are interesting. They want to understand. It's for the benefit of everyone in the forum that we elaborate our thoughts. It's for the benefit of the respondee because he had a spot he didn't understand and wants to. It's for the benefit of the responder because by elaborating his thoughts he has to go over the subject in his mind. It's for the benefit of the forum so that intelligent dialogue can take place.

I've mentioned this a few times, but it's reached the point where I feel if I can do anything to curb it we will all be better off.

Please elaborate.

Re: A comment on posting
 

Elaborating on what jason is saying:

If your comment on a hand posting takes you less than 10 seconds to type, YSSCKY.

At least 3 good sentences is a good barometer, I think. The better posters say more and explain more, though.

Re: A comment on posting
 

I like posts like these.

Oh snap! For content, I agree with what you're saying. I don't mind the quick posts like 'yeah this is good', or 'bet the turn' when the decisions sorta obvious and its clear the OP is just looking for reassurance, but when there's big discussions, it would be great if people read the thread first, then made a comment in the context.

Re: A comment on posting
 

If the one-liner is coming from a NPA-type poster, I don't really mind...I would much rather know rory's or sthief's or TStone's or Stellar's opinion than not know it! So hopefully this post doesn't discourage them from chiming in even when pressed for time.

However, I agree 100% that everybody else should either spend 15 min. on a post or not make it. (Yes, I'm guilty here too sometimes [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].)

Re: A comment on posting
 

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If the one-liner is coming from a NPA-type poster, I don't really mind...I would much rather know rory's or sthief's or TStone's or Stellar's opinion than not know it! So hopefully this post doesn't discourage them from chiming in even when pressed for time.

However, I agree 100% that everybody else should either spend 15 min. on a post or not make it. (Yes, I'm guilty here too sometimes [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].)

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I think reputation should be the last criteria as to how someone should post on this board.

Re: A comment on posting
 

In a perfect world maybe, but considering that 99.9% of my 2+2-derived learning has been from a group of <50 select posters...I stand by my previous post.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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If the one-liner is coming from a NPA-type poster, I don't really mind...I would much rather know rory's or sthief's or TStone's or Stellar's opinion than not know it! So hopefully this post doesn't discourage them from chiming in even when pressed for time.

However, I agree 100% that everybody else should either spend 15 min. on a post or not make it. (Yes, I'm guilty here too sometimes [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].)

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If everyone had to spend 15 minutes on each post we would probably lose out on a lot of the best posters throwing in their 2 cents from time to time. I'd rather have them put 2 minutes into a post and hear from them at critical points than have them never post. For 80% of HUSH I think the 15 minute rule would be good.

Re: A comment on posting
 

Perhaps you want to edit? You are in fact repeating the first paragraph of the post you quoted... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: A comment on posting
 

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In a perfect world maybe, but considering that 99.9% of my 2+2-derived learning has been from a group of <50 select posters...I stand by my previous post.

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A select group may open your eyes to weird and wonderful poker plays, but most guys here can analyse a straight forward hand (ie, 90% of the hands on HUSH).

If you're after inspiration, search for specific user posts. But asking people to post by rep, I don't think there's any need for it for 99% of the hands, because there's usually nothing special about them.

Re: A comment on posting
 

Worse too is that the one-liner spewers present their opinions like gospel. "FOLD PREFLOP" "BET THE RIVER," etc. Half the time I think they just post the one line because they can't elaborate why they think this. Your position isn't that strong if you can't explain it.

This kind of stuff hurts n00bs too. They see a short post from somebody who has a lot of posts (because they post like this) and assume that the answer to their question is obvious. Half the time these answers aren't even right.

Also, I think these posts come from people who have trouble thinking critically about the game, but who have heard that you need to read/post a lot in order to get better. They're just missing the mark.

Re: A comment on posting
 

Oh, ok, I see your point.

Re: A comment on posting
 

I dont think it's just to ask people to spend an inordinate amount of type on each post.

Rather, stop posting 5 word answers that are dribble. In 2+2 land you are allowed to post <5 word answers if you've established yourself as a worthy player and poster over a long period of time.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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i spent a lot of thinking about this and i think you should bet the river


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what a surpise that you picked one of barons posts. the reason he didnt elaborate is because we talked extensively about it on aim before he posted. and there was no need to rehash everything we had just talked about because I already knew all his reasoning. he was just posting his opinion for the sake of the rest of the forum.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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This kind of stuff hurts n00bs too. They see a short post from somebody who has a lot of posts (because they post like this) and assume that the answer to their question is obvious. Half the time these answers aren't even right.

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If the noobs can't tell the difference, [censored] them. Seriously. Those who cannot discern between the good posters and the bad are kool-aid drinking sheep that should quit poker immediately :P

Re: A comment on posting
 

The catch is that a lot of these one liner posts are redundant anyway. It doesn't add much to quote someone else verbatim except to show that you agree. That's somewhat reasonable, but not entirely constructive.

I think the one place a short answer is good is when responding to someone posting a very basic situation. If all they want is confirmation, then go ahead and give it to them and move on.

What I really don't like is when people disagree with a move but don't elaborate. If you disagree, there's a reason for it. If there's a reason, it can be typed on simplisticly in a single sentence. If people have more time, an explanation of that reasoning would be very nice to hear.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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i spent a lot of thinking about this and i think you should bet the river


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what a surpise that you picked one of barons posts. the reason he didnt elaborate is because we talked extensively about it on aim before he posted. and there was no need to rehash everything we had just talked about because I already knew all his reasoning. he was just posting his opinion for the sake of the rest of the forum.

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Neither you nor him should take offense at this. I left his name out of my OP so it would not look like I am picking on him. I didn't reply to him in the thread and antagonize him. I was trying to give specific examples so it would be clear what I mean. I gave two examples so it wouldn't look like I was picking on a particular person. I tried to be careful in my post and I made it thinking it might benefit the forum, not to pick on people. I tried to be professional, not critical.

I value his input in that hand, especially if he has spent extensive time thinking about it. I would value it more if he shared what he was thinking about it.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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i spent a lot of thinking about this and i think you should bet the river


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what a surpise that you picked one of barons posts. the reason he didnt elaborate is because we talked extensively about it on aim before he posted. and there was no need to rehash everything we had just talked about because I already knew all his reasoning. he was just posting his opinion for the sake of the rest of the forum.

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Neither you nor him should take offense at this. I left his name out of my OP so it would not look like I am picking on him. I didn't reply to him in the thread and antagonize him. I was trying to give specific examples so it would be clear what I mean. I think this is for the benefit of the forum.

I value his input in that hand, especially if he has spent extensive time thinking about it. I would value it more if he shared what he was thinking about it.

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he had already shared it with me, and since I was the OP, I dont see why he should feel responsible for typing it all out again. at some point people are allowed to post their opinion without much to back it up, (you see guys like diablo do it all the time). their advice is there if you want to listen, if not then go ahead and ignore it, but dont expect everyone to be writing novels in every post. I agree that its stupid when people with 40 posts give one liners, but I just ignore them and Im assuming everyone else does the same. If someone who has proven to be a good player and thinker in the past wants to give a one liner based on reputation alone, I dont see any problem with that. Also, in most hands, the reasoning is pretty obvious. For example in the hand I posted it basically comes down to how wide of range you think the guy can have. Obviously Baron thought that range was wide enough that he didnt have a flush often enough to make a bet profitable. What else is there to really say?

Re: A comment on posting
 

I'm not looking for novels in reply to every post. If that's what you read out of my post, I didn't make myself clear. A lot of decisions are obvious and elaboration is not necessary. However, I don't think the spot that you posted is obvious.

It's not about "responsibility" or anything like that. There's frankly little value in a post that says "i spent a lot of [time] thinking about this and i think you should bet the river." What value does that have to you if you two already discussed it? What value does that have to baronzeus if he already spent extensive time articulating his thoughts to you? What value does that have to the forum?

Re: A comment on posting
 

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I'm not looking for novels in reply to every post. If that's what you read out of my post, I didn't make myself clear. A lot of decisions are obvious and elaboration is not necessary. However, I don't think the spot that you posted is obvious.

It's not about "responsibility" or anything like that. There's frankly little value in a post that says "i spent a lot of [time] thinking about this and i think you should bet the river." What value does that have to you if you two already discussed it? What value does that have to baronzeus if he already spent extensive time articulating his thoughts to you? What value does that have to the forum?

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the value that it adds is the people who know and respect barons opinion will get to hear it. If schneids came in and posted nothing more than his opinion on what the correct play was in every thread in hush I would love it, wouldnt you?

Re: A comment on posting
 

NLSoldier, in that specific example, all baron would needed to have posted was 'I think we'll see busted flush draws often enough to call'.

Simple. At least some kind of reasoning to start the discussion.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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NLSoldier, in that specific example, all baron would needed to have posted was 'I think we'll see busted flush draws often enough to call'.

Simple. At least some kind of reasoning to start the discussion.

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I dont think we are talking about the same example.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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What value does that have to the forum?

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Muy importante

Re: A comment on posting
 

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] jason_t.

However, this forum has worked really well without posts on how to post. I'd let sleeping dogs lie and just chime in when I felt like it, ignoring those instances in which one feels another's post is either meritless or far less than it could be for wont of an explanation behind the recommendation.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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the value that it adds is the people who know and respect barons opinion will get to hear it. If schneids came in and posted nothing more than his opinion on what the correct play was in every thread in hush I would love it, wouldnt you?

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When I said

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I value his input in that hand, especially if he has spent extensive time thinking about it. I would value it more if he shared what he was thinking about it.

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I tried to make it clear that I'm happy he's posting at all but I think what you're missing is that it would have been a substantially more valuable post to everyone had he added one or two sentences in elaboration. If he already spent so much time thinking about it would have required little effort.

I don't want this to turn into a critique of one post however.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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NLSoldier, in that specific example, all baron would needed to have posted was 'I think we'll see busted flush draws often enough to call'.

Simple. At least some kind of reasoning to start the discussion.

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I dont think we are talking about the same example.

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My statement was an example. All he needed was another sentance. If thats too hard, the question is, why did he even post? You already knew his thoughts.

Re: A comment on posting
 

People need to learn to think for themselves.

Let's say, for the sake of example, that a good poster had made the a reply to the post in question. This poster made a one line comment saying "bet the river." but didn't bother elaborating for the rest of the forum.

I'm a n00b and I'm reading that thread. I really have no choice but to try to interpret why that poster made that post. Here’s the thought process that I go through. “Why do people value bet in general? Because they have the best hand and the person will call with a worse hand often enough to make the bet show a positive return. So why does this poster think a worse hand will call? Well, what worse hands play like this? I guess hands that flop two pairs might play like this. Also, some decent TPTK hands and TP2K hands might play like this in general. It also doesn’t seem like he has a flush since Villain didn’t bet the river…so I guess betting is probably right.”

This is something even the new players/posters in the forum need to do. When you’re at the table and it comes down to decision time you can’t go to past examples because every hand is different. All you can do is try to understand what is the right move and why. If you never learn to think for yourself, you will never progress as a poker player and will continue to struggle whenever you are tested.

Frankly I’d rather have posters like Schneids make a 1 line post in every thread than anything else. I wouldn’t even need to read the rest of the thread if I didn’t want to. I am smart enough as a person to interpret what Schneids says and to evolve as a thinking player.

I actually didn’t think elaboration was necessary in this case because there are already plenty of resources on the topics at hand. If players don’t know why and how to value bet, they need to go to the archives or read previous threads. I see no reason for me to spend 10 minutes typing out why a value bet is necessary in every thread where it’s being questioned because the reasons are always the same—and this line applies to many other concepts as well.

I know the post you made wasn’t malicious in any way but I think the reasoning behind it was unfounded. This forum is fine as it is and (as a person who has made 3000+ posts just in this forum over the past few months) it is the best learning tool on 2+2. Learn to use it and you will get better. It’s as simple as that.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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I actually didn’t think elaboration was necessary in this case because there are already plenty of resources on the topics at hand. If players don’t know why and how to value bet, they need to go to the archives or read previous threads. I see no reason for me to spend 10 minutes typing out why a value bet is necessary in every thread where it’s being questioned because the reasons are always the same—and this line applies to many other concepts as well.

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this is exactly where I am coming from.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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However, I agree 100% that everybody else should either spend 15 min. on a post or not make it.

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Im assuming this was sarcastic, but seriously. 15 min=like $50 worth of time for many people in this forum. Not that everyone would be playing 100% of the time if they werent posting, but still that is way too much time to be spending on 1 post.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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Frankly I’d rather have posters like Schneids make a 1 line post in every thread than anything else. I wouldn’t even need to read the rest of the thread if I didn’t want to. I am smart enough as a person to interpret what Schneids says and to evolve as a thinking player.

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I think this is silly. If I were smart enough to figure stuff out from a one-line answer from Schneids, I wouldn't need Schneids to answer in the first place.

We're all able to go through a hand analytically to try and come up with an optimal course of action (even if many of us, myself included, don't do it enough). To me, what separates the real top players are cetain things they see in a hand that the rest of us don't.

If I'm overlooking something, a one line answer from a veteran isn't going to help me find it. On the other hand, if they take a little time to explain their rationale, I often feel like I learn something.

I'd much rather have an in-depth response than a one-liner.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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I'd much rather have an in-depth response than a one-liner.

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What about between a one liner or nothing? Becuase in reality thats what it comes down to.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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If I'm overlooking something, a one line answer from a veteran isn't going to help me find it. On the other hand, if they take a little time to explain their rationale, I often feel like I learn something.

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i'm not saying that I wouldn't want schneids to evaluate what he said--but I'd be grateful for his advice as it stood. If i'm overlooking something and see schneids' post is in disagreement with my thoughts it is super easy for me to spend 5-10 minutes to think and figure out why he said that thing. Later on if I have a problem and still can't figure it out, THEN I ask him to elaborate. But it's not his job to think for me.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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I'd much rather have an in-depth response than a one-liner.

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What about between a one liner or nothing? Becuase in reality thats what it comes down to.

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in reality, it comes down to this. most of us have school or full time jobs and honestly don't have time besides 1-2 hours a day to devote to poker, and honestly i'd rather spend that time playing poker.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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Im assuming this was sarcastic, but seriously. 15 min=like $50 worth of time for many people in this forum. Not that everyone would be playing 100% of the time if they werent posting, but still that is way too much time to be spending on 1 post.

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Yeah, I've tried to cut back on posting because of this. On the one hand, I feel like I shouldn't post short responses because it doesn't help others improve. On the other hand, posting long responses takes a lot of time/attention away from playing and doesn't help me once I've figured out the problem.

Often, I think a lot of about a posted hand and end up deleting my response because I've already analyzed the problem enough for my satisfaction and it would take too long to express my thoughts.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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I'd much rather have an in-depth response than a one-liner.

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What about between a one liner or nothing? Becuase in reality thats what it comes down to.

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Yes, naturally the more the merrier. It's just that at times I've felt the same frustration that Jason has. I really value the posts where people take the time to go through their thought process... that doesn't mean I see the short answers as a negative.

Re: A comment on posting
 

respect my authorita

Re: A comment on posting
 

I don't understand why one liners are so bad anyway. Plenty can be said about a poker hand in one line. My only problem comes when people are having integrate discussion on a hand about, say, someone flop play, and someone posts 'betting the flop is terrible' after 5 pages of posts where good discussion was held.

I think its part ego, myself. But barons right, we don't need a paragraph explaining stuff. I think one liners can give as much content and get to the meat of the problem more then a tail-chasing long winded reply like we see in micro limits.

Re: A comment on posting
 

raise pre-flop

bet the river

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: A comment on posting
 

I'm really tired, and I'll think about the rest of what you said later. But I do have a few immediate thoughts about your last paragraph.

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I know the post you made wasn’t malicious in any way but I think the reasoning behind it was unfounded.

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Because I've come across in the past to you harshly, I carefully tried to make it clear that I wasn't aiming my post at you. I don't want to have little forum fights, especially with someone like you who, in spite of how it sometimes seems, I do have respect for. I should just apologize publically for being harsh on you in the past.

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This forum is fine as it is and (as a person who has made 3000+ posts just in this forum over the past few months) it is the best learning tool on 2+2.

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One thing that makes the forum great is that we have a resource for having large conversations. It's not perfect. I made my post hoping to start a conversation about a topic that's been bothering me. I didn't intend to sound authoritative, merely observational. I was making a plea, not a demand.

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Learn to use it and you will get better. It’s as simple as that.

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I'm not sure if this is directed at me or the forum at large, but if it's directed at me I do take offense to it.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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I don't understand why one liners are so bad anyway. Plenty can be said about a poker hand in one line. My only problem comes when people are having integrate discussion on a hand about, say, someone flop play, and someone posts 'betting the flop is terrible' after 5 pages of posts where good discussion was held.

I think its part ego, myself. But barons right, we don't need a paragraph explaining stuff. I think one liners can give as much content and get to the meat of the problem more then a tail-chasing long winded reply like we see in micro limits.

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I agree with this and is really what I was after.

Re: A comment on posting
 

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I'm not sure if this is directed at me or the forum at large, but if it's directed at me I do take offense to it.

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It was totally open to anyone who wishes to get better (including me).