Overcards hand from the archive
 

I've been searching through the archives lately and this one came up. Playing overcards is still a problem for me, as it is for many posters. This is the kind of hand where I think the answer should be obvious to me, but isn't. And I suspect we might get a few different opinions.

Anyway, what do you do here and why? I'll post the responses from the archived thread if this turns out to be interesting at all.


Party 3/6 game. Dealt Ad Kd in the cutoff. EP calls, MP calls, I raise, SB folds, BB calls, limpers call. 4 to the Flop for 8.5sb.

Flop: 7c 4h 2d

SB checks, EP bets, MP calls, I...

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

I raise here because of the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the flop.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

I sometimes call and sometimes raise here. I'll basically never raise if my opponents aren't the type to just call and then check to me on the turn. I hate a raise if I'm going to get 3bet or they donkbet the turn even a relatively small percentage of the time.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

I like a raise unless a free card is rare at this table.Since you are almost always holding two live cards and you have the backdoor flush you don't have to get a free card exceptionally often for this raise to be valuable. This flop is very ragged and as such you are unlikely to get 3-bet by typical party 3/6ers. I'd be surprised if the archives suggest anything but a raise; this seems almost textbook.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

I first response is to raise. EP knows yo probebly have overcards and is testing you. I raise to test him back and then watch the turn carefully to see if that straight straight gets more noticable.

EP called early so HE probebly has overcards OR weak pockets.

I don;t want those guys to take charge adter I raised in,

Grinders Warehouse BLOG Edition

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

Well there is 10.5 sb's in the pot, If we smooth call odds are SB will call most of the time... so that's 12.5 sb's going to the turn.

If we raise here, SB probobly isn't going to call, but you know the other 2 will call it 95% of the time, If not Raise so You're going to have atleast 14.5 SB's

We've got Backdoor Straight / Flush draws as well as 2 strongest overcards, so I'm counting 6ish outs here?

With that in mind we hit the turn with 7.25 BBs in the pot facing us instead of 6.25 is we smooth-call. But we're also getting the chance at at a free turn(as an above poster mentioned we can count that in here depending on the table).

Just because in this situation I think a free - turn is viable atleast 20% of the time I'd advocate Raising. Not sure if I am looking at it wrong?

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

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Not sure if I am looking at it wrong?

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You seem to be implying that raising the flop will give you better odds to continue drawing to your hand on the turn. This is a very incorrect way to think.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

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Not sure if I am looking at it wrong?

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You seem to be implying that raising the flop will give you better odds to continue drawing to your hand on the turn. This is a very incorrect way to think.

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it seems a backwards way to think.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

I am going for the raise here because of the strength of the combined draws and taking the free card if necessary. Question is what to do if 3 bet. Unlikely, but I would call and see where the turn took us.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

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it seems a backwards way to think.

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I'm unclear whether you're saying that I'm thinking backwards or if you're suggesting that Jayson is thinking backwards?

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

This used to be an auto-raise for me until I realized it was an autowaste. I'm just calling here.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like a raise unless a free card is rare at this table.Since you are almost always holding two live cards and you have the backdoor flush you don't have to get a free card exceptionally often for this raise to be valuable. This flop is very ragged and as such you are unlikely to get 3-bet by typical party 3/6ers. I'd be surprised if the archives suggest anything but a raise; this seems almost textbook.

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I think this is textbook. Raise for the free card if you think you'll get it most of the time. Take the freebie unless you hit an OC.

If you don't think villain(s) will give you the freebie then you're playing a fairly weak draw (BDF helps) against several opponents and you may already be reverse dominated. I call here and hope everybody calls along with no raises.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

Extremely table dependent situation. If you think that a freecard is possible, then the raise is fine. If not, then call. Versus aware opps, the flop raise can be reasonably construed as a FCP.

Either line is playable. In the instant case, if you have availed yourself of a recent FCP or if EP is aggro, then a flop call seems appropriate.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

I call here sometimes getting odds to improve and the backdoor draws. I also raise here sometimes looking to get a free card depending on what the turn brings or firing out again if I think I can win it right then.

If BB (not SB, SB folded) goes away, that's nice, but that's not the objective.

- Jim

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

I like raising here with the intention of taking a free card UI on the turn. This gives you a chance to fold BB and clean up some outs if he holds something like A2 or A4.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

Justin:

[ QUOTE ]
I sometimes call and sometimes raise here. I'll basically never raise if my opponents aren't the type to just call and then check to me on the turn. I hate a raise if I'm going to get 3bet or they donkbet the turn even a relatively small percentage of the time.

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I think this is the right answer. The more likely I that I will get a freecard (ie the more passive the players) the more likely I am to raise. If my opponents are aggressive I will most likely just call. I can't see myself folding here.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

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This used to be an auto-raise for me until I realized it was an autowaste. I'm just calling here.

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Why? It seems like a classic free card play. Is there something about the particulars of this hand that you don't like (reads, board texture)? Or is it that you think the free card play is bad in itself?

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

NO, I should have qualified my response to include the I'll raise if I think I'll be able to snag a freebie. If so, then yes. I guess I was getting repopped a lot so I've been more careful about raising in this spot.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

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This used to be an auto-raise for me until I realized it was an autowaste. I'm just calling here.

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Why? It seems like a classic free card play. Is there something about the particulars of this hand that you don't like (reads, board texture)? Or is it that you think the free card play is bad in itself?

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You know for me it totally depends on the table

I was playing 8/16 at the wynn a couple weeks ago. On a hand like this where I raise preflop, flop is rags... if I raised that flop at the wynn, I'm getting 3bet or donked about 95% of the time. The players were just too aggressive, they catch any piece of that raggedy flop or straight or flush draw or just thinking you must only have overs, and they would really come after you. Raising this hand here is just spewing in this case, I believe. You're not winning this unimproved, and you have what amounts to a very weak draw in a multiway pot.

OTOH.... foxwoods 5/10 last weekend. this table was SO passive that I'm buying a free card here about 80% of the time. at this table I'm raising this a LOT -- anyone who caught a 7 or has pocket pair is going to seriously slow down and just relinquish control of the pot. In a pot this big, having control of the betting and position is $$$$$


my point is, it really depends on your competition. For SSHE I think you're right this is the classic free card play.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

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This used to be an auto-raise for me until I realized it was an autowaste. I'm just calling here.

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Why? It seems like a classic free card play.

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This statement is exactly to the point. It reads as a classic FCP and, as such, aggro opps understand that and 3 bet you or call and SnG the turn.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

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This used to be an auto-raise for me until I realized it was an autowaste. I'm just calling here.

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Why? It seems like a classic free card play. Is there something about the particulars of this hand that you don't like (reads, board texture)? Or is it that you think the free card play is bad in itself?

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I'm not sure how things have been in the 3/6 game, but at 5/10 I'm not raising this most of the time. It seems like they've gotten pretty good at bet-3betting the PFR or donk betting the turn and foiling my free card play. Also, remember it's not like you're getting a free river out of it, you're paying 1 small bet less. If you get 3bet you're paying a full big bet more, and one small bet more if you're donk bet. I just don't think your equity is quite strong enough here to justify a free card play. It's also important to note that sometimes when you just call it may be checked to you on the turn if something like a queen or jack hits.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

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This used to be an auto-raise for me until I realized it was an autowaste. I'm just calling here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? It seems like a classic free card play. Is there something about the particulars of this hand that you don't like (reads, board texture)? Or is it that you think the free card play is bad in itself?

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I'm not sure how things have been in the 3/6 game, but at 5/10 I'm not raising this most of the time. It seems like they've gotten pretty good at bet-3betting the PFR or donk betting the turn and foiling my free card play. Also, remember it's not like you're getting a free river out of it, you're paying 1 small bet less. If you get 3bet you're paying a full big bet more, and one small bet more if you're donk bet. I just don't think your equity is quite strong enough here to justify a free card play. It's also important to note that sometimes when you just call it may be checked to you on the turn if something like a queen or jack hits.

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Yes, this was just the sort of thing I was looking for. I've just started to make forays into 5/10 after having played almost exclusively 2/4 and 3/6 for the last while, and the flop aggression is the single most noticeable difference at this level.

At my normal super loose/passive B&M 4/8 game, this is an easy raise, and nobody catches on that it's for a free card, or if they do, they don't take a stand against it.

Re: RESULTS
 

Hero raised. Ed Miller responded in the thread saying he thought the raise "sucked".

link

I'll add my thoughts later.

Re: Overcards hand from the archive
 

I would call most of the time. Getting 3-bet would really suck, and I don't think the possibility of a free card is enough incentive to risk it. If there wasn't a caller in between, a raise would be more likely.

Re: RESULTS
 

I agree with everything Jason A has said so far. You only save 1SB if the free card play works, but lose more than that if it does not. Thus, you have to be very sure you won't get played back at.

Also, I think an extremely important consideration is the fact that you have a much higher than usual chance of being reverse dominated on this board. People love those Ax hands. In the archived thread, a couple people made the observation that they would rather raise here with KQ than AK.