TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

UTG is a solid TAG. Good preflop standards, aggressive when it's appropriate.

MP2 and CO are loose and weak.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Pretty standard, I think. Obviously raising CO's bet wouldn't accomplish anything, but I had to push my edge when it came back raised. When UTG c/r, then calls, I'm thinking he has a mid pocket pair and was trying to protect his hand by c/r a bet from LP, or *possibly* has a set and is waiting to see what the turn brings before really going to war given the scary texture of the flop.

Turn: (10.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="green"> Hero...? </font>

Here's my main question. So now, I pick up TP but with a weak kicker. My pair of kings could be best, but then again the river could bring another diamond which would almost certainly give me the best hand. There's three players still in the hand, and a bet is unlikely to win the pot right there. UTG could raise if he has a strong hand, and the pot isn't big enough that I really want to pay 2 BB to see the river when (if) I need to catch a diamond to win. I am reminded of the part in HEFAP where it recommends checking hands on the turn (last to act) that have the possibility to improve to a very strong hand and betting ones that are made. Check or bet?

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

Easy bet.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

Reasoning please?

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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Reasoning please?

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Your equity is pretty big between the possibility of your hand being best or improving to the best hand.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

Duh. Bet.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

Also, HFAP is generally discussing very tough games. This one is not. Bet.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

I bet/call, planning to fold the river UI. If you don't have the best hand here, you have a metric fuckload of outs. Personally, I think you're best here a good majority of the time.

-Jaran

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

I'd bet because after it is checked to you I think you have the best hand and if not you still have planty of outs.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

'Metric fuckload.' I love SI units.

So, if I bet and am just called in a couple spots, are you calling a bet from your right on the river UI?

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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Your equity is pretty big between the possibility of your hand being best or improving to the best hand.

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Easy bet.

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Also, the K is unlikely to have improved anyone. If UTG flopped a set, then he's making a horrible play by check-raising you on the turn and blowing out MP2.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

Good point.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

Bet. You have top pair and a strong flush draw - you will win this pot more than your share of the time. Bet for value. Even if you are behind 2 pair - you have at least 14 outs to improve, plus hidden outs if the board pairs(depending on their hands). Also, I doubt you are behind - no one has shown any strength on this street.

Does anyone raise this pre-flop?

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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Does anyone raise this pre-flop?

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KTs or maybe even K9s I'd consider it. Not here.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

Excellent post.

I bet the turn and I think that it is for value.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a solid TAG. Good preflop standards, aggressive when it's appropriate.

MP2 and CO are loose and weak.
...
Check or bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say bet. There is a chance UTG will check-raise. But since he check-raised the flop, I'm surprised he didn't come out firing. I'd expect him to call.

Even if he did raise, since the pot is 10BB I would be comfortable with wagering 2BB in order to see the river. Especially if I think I'll make best hand if a diamond hits. If a low diamond hits and one of MP2 or CO make a straight, there will be even more bets to pick up.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

I would have raised the first flop bet.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

If I'm not improved, I think I'd call one, but I'm not sure about overcalling. I think I would call one from UTG if all fold to me. If one of the weakies in the middle bet, I'd overcall one and I'm tempted to raise a CO bet. Not sure about that one.

-Jaran

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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Also, the K is unlikely to have improved anyone. If UTG flopped a set, then he's making a horrible play by check-raising you on the turn and blowing out MP2.

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I initially thought this was true, but am no longer so sure. What if one of MP2 or CO (or both) are on a gut-shot straight draw? Do you really want them drawing out on you? I think a check-raise gives them incorrect odds to call, no? Or maybe I'm missing something else. Can you explain, please. Thanks.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Also, the K is unlikely to have improved anyone. If UTG flopped a set, then he's making a horrible play by check-raising you on the turn and blowing out MP2.

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I initially thought this was true, but am no longer so sure. What if one of MP2 or CO (or both) are on a gut-shot straight draw? Do you really want them drawing out on you? I think a check-raise gives them incorrect odds to call, no? Or maybe I'm missing something else. Can you explain, please. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero played this 100% like a flush draw, and expecting him to bet the turn is dumb. If he hadn't hit the king on the turn (or an ace if he had the nut flush draw), he would take a free card and fold the river without the flush.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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I would have raised the first flop bet.

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True, good point.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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Hero played this 100% like a flush draw, and expecting him to bet the turn is dumb.

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Right. Got it. Going for the check-raise here is a no-no. Thanks.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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Reasoning please?

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Because your holding a hand where your equity is larger than the fields.

Sage[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
'Metric fuckload.' I love SI units.

So, if I bet and am just called in a couple spots, are you calling a bet from your right on the river UI?

[/ QUOTE ]




^^^^ This is a good question

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

I think you should bet the turn.

HEFAP also suggests that you may bet the turn, when you have a pair and 4 flush as a semi-bluff. You have 14 outs to improve to a strong hand and the possibility that all your opponents will fold.

As you mentioned your pair of K's may already be the best hand and your opponents have shown weakness by checking to you.

If UTG check-raises you have 9 outs to the 2nd nut flush, and if only one of MP2 or CO come along for the ride you will have maintained your equity edge. Also if either or both of MP2 and CO fold, you will have improved your winning chances.

I think when HEFAP suggests checking hands with outs and betting made hands with few outs on the turn, that it is referring to situations, where you are more likely to be beaten by a stronger hand when the pot is multiway and you probably have to catch your draw to win.

They use as an example your having 2 pair, when there are 3 flush cards on board, and you are first to act on the turn against 3 or more opponents.

The difference in your hand, is that you have had the advantage of already seeing all your opponents check to you, and there is a strong likelihood that you have the best hand.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

I suppose that you would have raised the first flop bet to try to fold out some of the overcards to your 7, to improve your chances of winning the pot if your 7 paired.

Correct ?

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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I would have raised the first flop bet.

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Someone please explain this one to me.... I have never made this play and would like to understand what the point of it is.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

That's why UTG's turn check confused the hell out of me, since he was normally fairly aggressive. If he had a hand, I'd really expect him to bet out here in an attempt to deny a free look at the river.

Turn action... river
 

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

River: (13.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="green"> Action to Hero... </font>

Okay, what the hell. When UTG just called my turn bet, I felt like my kings were good. So, him coming out firing on the river when a brick fell was unexpected. If MP2 folds I call this every time, but I'm not sure if I want to overcall.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

Given your equity, I think your flop play was great. You raised after everyone was in for two thereby increasing your expectation. Had you raised the first time everyone behind you has to call two bets...

IMO you played it perfectly.

Re: Turn action... river
 

Hmmmmm, if I were to guess, I think he has 99 and played the turn awfully. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't overcall an UTG bet here. I'm folding.

-Jaran

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

In the dark:

I would have raised the flop the first time around. With 9 sb in there, I want to improve my chances of winning it in case I spike K.

I would bet that turn with no hesitation. You most likely have the best hand, if you don't, you have alot of outs to improve. I wouldn't worry about your kicker in this spot.

Unless CO was bluffing with KJ or something, or unless somebody called 2 cold with 2 overs, your kicker should not be a factor in this spot.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

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I would have raised the first flop bet.

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Someone please explain this one to me.... I have never made this play and would like to understand what the point of it is.

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As stated in SSH, when the pot is big, and you have a good hand or draw (or something good enough to call) you should raise if doing so will increase your chances of winning.

Here spiking a 7 or a K might be enough to win you the pot if you can push players out.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

Hero Bets.

Re: TPwK/Flush draw... turn play?
 

I really like betting this turn. Your flop play combined with this turn bet will scare the crap out of your average .50/1.00 player, and you might pick up the pot right here. Also, you have a lot of outs to improve your hand. Also, you probably have the best hand.

Re: Turn action... river
 

I overcall. You're almost definitely beating MP2 who likely has one pair below king. If you're losing to UTG, it should be because he beat you on the river. It's a weird place to bet a worse hand than yours, but his line has been weird the whole time. I'm not folding top pair in this big pot for one bet closing the action.