\"I value call my nuts\"
 

First hand at the table, no reads on anyone. (Yes I know its the second nuts)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (10 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls...

Yay? or Nay?

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I think I would have raised the turn... there are 4 8s and 9 diamonds that I don't want to see on the river. It's probably ok, IMO, to go for overcalls on that river.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

Im a newbie but i...


Played it like you did,but then Raise river.

Pay the 78 hand if he has it, seems agressive for flopping the nuts straight...

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I think I agree with going for overcalls on the turn (except that if a 7 or 8 falls on the river I'm not feeling very happy), but by the time you get to the river anybody that's calling 1 will call 2, dontcha think? Raise.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

Raise the turn, raise the river. Make them pay to see the river.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I like raising the turn. Your hand is really well hidden here. Also, anyone with 2 diamonds will probably pay you off to see the river.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

People closing the action on that turn have proper odds (counting implied odds) to call with a gutshot. Don't allow them to draw properly, and you'll either get them to make a bad call or raise your equity (which is admittedly already pretty high).

Also, just because it would be correct for someone with two [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s to coldcall a turn raise doesn't mean you shouldn't let them do it.

Raise the turn.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like raising the turn. Your hand is really well hidden here. Also, anyone with 2 diamonds will probably pay you off to see the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn, raise the river. Make them pay to see the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is my thinking

On the turn, If I raised, I would face the field with 4:1. No one is getting the correct odds to call, and likely the only (incorrect) caller would be two diamonds, if they are out there. The original bettor may even fold. By going for the overcalls, I think the additional bets in the pot for the majority of the time when the diamond does not hit would make up for the few times I lose when the diamond does hit. If the diamond does hit, and someone made their flush, I was going to lose the hand anyways, but it would cost me more. Going for the overcalls was a gamble I think, but in this case it paid off on the turn.

On the river, I have the second nuts (I am not worried at all about losing the hand). If I raise here, who is going to call me? A rivered Q would probably be the only one. The original bettor may even fold. If I just call however, any 9 will probably call, any Q will call (and maybe even raise), 88 and 77 will call, a 6 may even call. By raising, I think the only money that goes into the pot is a rivered Q, and possibly the original bettor. I took a gamble and went for the overcalls again, (and prayed for a C/R Q).

Like it any better, or still no?

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I don't mind going for overcalls on the river, but the turn simply must be raised. There's a lot of draws here that will happily pay 2BB to see the river.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I don't like it, at all.

You have to raise the flop to protect your hand against flush draws. You probably have the best hand, but there could easily be someone drawing to a flush.

If you don't raise the flop, then raise the turn.

The river is okay if you think you'll get a bunch of overcalls.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind going for overcalls on the river, but the turn simply must be raised. There's a lot of draws here that will happily pay 2BB to see the river.

[/ QUOTE ] I suppose I am overestimating the micro players slightly. I know 2 diamonds would call this in a second, but I didn't really stop and think about a 7, which would probably also call. A 4 or an 8 may call, but I doubt it.

However, what are the chances that any of these draws are actually out there? What are the chances that they are calling with a couple of overcards or a weak pair? That is what I based my decision on. It appears I could be wrong though.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it, at all.

You have to raise the flop to protect your hand against flush draws. You probably have the best hand, but there could easily be someone drawing to a flush.

If you don't raise the flop, then raise the turn.

The river is okay if you think you'll get a bunch of overcalls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reread the hand. Raising the flop would be nasty.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

The turn and river are debateable, but raising the flop is clearly wrong. I don't have a made hand. Micro players are not folding their flush draws on the flop even if it is for 2 bets. If they have a flush draw, I am drawing to 6 outs, not 8. If there is a flush draw and an 8 out there, I am drawing to 3 outs. Raising the flop will protect against an 8 (maybe), but my hand is far too marginal at this point to consider trying to protect.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have to raise the flop to protect your hand against flush draws. You probably have the best hand, but there could easily be someone drawing to a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't protect your hand against flush draws. Remember, flush draws are your companion to the river.

Due to our position relative to the postflop aggressor, a raise would potentially blow out a lot of callers, reducing our implied odds significantly. If you get more distance between you and the aggressor, then I like to pump OESD's same as flush draws, but this is impossible in this situation.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]


On the turn, If I raised, I would face the field with 4:1. No one is getting the correct odds to call...

[/ QUOTE ]

People haven't figured out yet that you need good odds to call with gutshots and overcards ; give them the chance to make a mistake by calling when they should fold. By not raising you are encouraging gutshots to play their hand correctly.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

Raising the flop is retarded. The turn is interesting, but I'd probably raise here. Calling the river is correct, IMO.

Rob

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I would pop it up on 4th street. I'm not a big fan of plays like this since you want to give someone the chance to make a bad call with a hand like 98 or whatever. It is hard to get lots of value from loose players by just calling in these spots (although calling the river is fine here).

Brad

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I'd raise the turn to see if UTG+1 has 78. If he reraises I'd call down.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the turn to see if UTG+1 has 78. If he reraises I'd call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has 78, I cap and pay off. There is NO way that I would call down the second nuts just because I was raised. A reraise could be anything from an idiot overplaying top pair, to two pair, to a set. If you don't understand why I called on the river, its because with three players left behind me, I wanted to encourage the rest of the field to call, thus making a bigger pot for me to win. If I raised, chances are everyone would fold, and I might collect one extra BB from the original bettor.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

Wow, for some reason I thought hero flopped a straight...

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

definately raise the turn and the river.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I posted my response blind. after reading the responses, I can see why you just called the rvr, but still, never underestimate these donkeys. I just saw a capped flop, turn and river with 4 hearts and a K and J on the brd. The winner had A9, both black and took it down with a pair of nines. I think people just like the feeling of capping at these levels. Dumbasses.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

Raise the turn most definately, having a low end straight you want to protect your hand with a check raise.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

i see what people are saying about raising the turn, but to be honest i probably would have done the same on the turn, but definately raised the river. i don't see the downside to it at that point.

If he's got you beat, so be it - but chances are he doesn't and you'll get paid off.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I love your table...

I'd raise to make sure I get that extra bet from UTG, SB/BB could have missed their flush draws, and probably you will at most get one overcaller, so raising will extract the same amount or more if there is some idiocy...

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

Raise the turn, and let the action on 4th street dictate how you play the river.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
i see what people are saying about raising the turn, but to be honest i probably would have done the same on the turn, but definately raised the river. i don't see the downside to it at that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the worst line here. Why call the turn and raise the river?

Are live flush draws going to call your turn raise? Yes. Are missed flush draws going to call your river raise? No.

Not raising this turn means you miss good value off people who are still drawing (not just flush draws, either). Once the river hits they're not drawing anymore and they aren't paying you off unless they've made some sort of hand (and not even that is guaranteed if you raise the river infront of them).

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

Qualifier: I'm weak

I fold preflop, fold on the flop I count a probable 3 outs, and a gagillion redraws in a smallish pot. I raise the turn and call the river, or obviously bet if its checked to me and the 3rd diamond hasn't come.

Regards Mack

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I totally agree with this. I think this river should be raised because your opponents were probably on flush draws or chasing with 2nd pair or something and will fold to one bet anyway. Raise in case one of them randomly caught two pair or decides to be stupid. At worst, you only get a call from the agressor, at best you get in a random raising war.

Caveat: I come from the much looser land of .5/1.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

Here is my thinking

On the turn, If I raised, I would face the field with 4:1. No one is getting the correct odds to call, and likely the only (incorrect) caller would be two diamonds, if they are out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when is 4:1 to a flush draw with one to come, incorrect odds? With implied odds, he's sure to get a Check/Call out of you at the worst when his diamond hit (1BB) so don't the implied odds make 4:1 pot odds needing a diamond on the river a +EV call?

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

*blind post*

The pot is WAY too big to not raise here. READ SSHE. You cannot let these donks get proper odds!

So, yes, I raise. Every time. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I did have a good example of an overcall hand...maybe I oughta find that when i get home.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

Here is my thinking

On the turn, If I raised, I would face the field with 4:1. No one is getting the correct odds to call, and likely the only (incorrect) caller would be two diamonds

[/ QUOTE ]

4:1 is correct to call with 2 diamonds.

They are 4.1:1 to hit it, and once you add implied odds it’s an easy call.

When they miss they pay nothing extra when they fold the river. But when they hit, they will often win 2 or more bets from you.

-G

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

Raise the turn.

1. Your not folding hands that you want to protect against(i.e. flushes and most donks holding a nut gutter)and your relative postion sucks to extract max value, but this is indeed a value raise spot. Estimating(low) your equity at about 80%. If you raise and only get the bettor to call you are still making value.

2. There are something like 17 cards that destroy you on the river. One of the conditions of the overcall play requires none to a few cards crush you(0-4?).

3. When the hands that beat you do hit on the river you will be paying them off and when they don't hit you won't get any more from them. Get that value out of them now.


Going for overcalls on this river is good.
1. You have the second nuts.
2. If UTG+1 flop the nut striaght(unlikely) he only gets one more out of you.
3. Missed flushes/gutters won't call. But if any paired they might.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

Interesting hand. Thanks for posting. I like the flop call. First instinct among many of us would be raise, but this calls for a... er... call. The turn is debatable, but I think you should have raised. The flush draws are not going anywhere, and you have more equity than them, so make them pay you. Other cold callers are likely too, so I think a turn raise makes sense. As you only called the turn, I like the river call.

Re: \"I value call my nuts\"
 

I think I would raise the turn. Someone is on a flush draw so they will call.

That being said a call wasn't too bad.

I think even a call on the river will get the other 2 to call, so I think I like the way you played it, although if it were me I know I would have thrown a raise in there some where.

nh