How Would You Play This Hand?
 

Someone asked me if they played this hand correctly in the Bellagio 15K WPT finals.

First day early. Very tough table. 100-200 blinds. Several limpers. Player in question limps in late position with Kx of spades. Unraised pot. Flop comes T62 with two spades. All check to player who bets 1200. Only the big blind calls. Turn is 8s. Blind checks and player bets 2500. He gets check raised 5000 more. He has 35000 left as does his opponent.

I do not want to discuss the rightness of the play up to this point. I just want to know what the player facing the 5000 check raise from a tough opponent should do now.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I'm going to reraise him 20,000 more and try to shut him out
of the pot if he is holding something like tens with the spade
ace, two pair, or trips. If he has the straight maybe im going
to break him. If he's got the nuts im going broke but i'd rather die like a lion than live like a coward even though
its early in the tournament.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

To me, certainly no pro, the tougher the player, the more likely they would be to bluff in this spot, especially if the person they are bluffing into is someone they perceive as a novice (i.e. not good enough to smell a bluff, but good enough to realize someone would "have" to have a flush to bet there).
In addition, the BB could have anything (unraised pot) so 9-7 seems also possible.
Either way, if this player is good it may be too early for him/her to play for all his chips (which he most likely will on the river).

Cody

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

Hmm, this is why I dont play Kx suited very much...for the flush I mean. I probably call and take a look at one more card, and get a better read on the player.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I'll vote for "smooth-call the Turn, call the River/value-bet if checked to."

Sounds like this "tough" BB is capable of making a well-timed bluff. Our player limped into a multi-way pot, and bet the flop only when checked to, and again the Turn (HU) when a draw came through. Looks like a good time for BB to "make a play."

Of the times the BB is bluffing, if he's capable of firing a 2nd time on the River (it'll be a 16k pot or so by then if our player calls the raise), then a smooth-call of the Turn raise, and flat call of a River bet gets the max out of a bluffing BB. He won't pay off a raise on the Turn anyhow. By just calling, our player gets the most chips (on average) out of BB the times BB is drawing dead on a pure bluff, because a % of the time BB will bet the River.

If the BB has our player beat (either the nut flush on the Turn, or makes the nut flush/full house on the River), then the player protects himself and doesn't lose his whole 35k stack going to war against a better hand.. This assumes BB won't lead all-in on the River with a better hand, nor try and get overly cute with a C/R all-in over our player's (intended) value bet on the end. BB will want a River call from our player the times he has a hand that beats a K-high flush, and it'll be hard to put our player on a hand strong enough to call off his entire 35k stack.

If BB has a hand like a straight, a set, or two pair, if a scare card doesn't hit on the River, he'll likely value bet the River into our player there (or maybe check-call a smallish bet if a scare card does hit). If our player reraises such a hand on the Turn, he may get BB to lay down some hands right there (even if he thinks our player may do this as a semi-bluff/with a weaker hand a % of the time, the combinations of probabilities and prospect of facing a River bet as well may make BB fold a hand we don't want him folding).

The one drawback to just calling the Turn raise, is that if BB is behind but has outs (two pair, As, set), he's not charged any more to see the River card...but all factors considered, that seems like a risk worth taking here...

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

considering that your opponent is tough, there are a lot of hands your opponent could be betting. included on this list are Ax suited, the ace of spades with a pair, a set, an open ended straight flush draw, a straight flush, a high pair or even a bluff. of these, the only two you need worry about are the Ax and the straight flush. at this point the straight flush and the nut flush are unlikely especially considering that you are holding two spades as well and it is extremely rare for two flushes to be up when there are only three of the suit on the board. considering your chip stack, imho, the best situation is to raise the minimum and fold if played back on or if your opponent bets the river. if you win you can figure to have 40000 in chips which is a nice stack to sit back and wait on a hand with. if your opponent plays overtop of you, you will be left with about 20000 which is 100 x the big blinds. this is still a sizeable stack to wait on. the reason i do not like calling is that it shows weakness to your opponent and if he picks up on this he will be able to bluff you out of a big pot on the river.

thats my story and im sticking to it.
Johnny

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I DON'T LIKE A SMOOTH CALL HERE..WHY LET HIM HAVE A CHANCE TO DRAW OUY ON THE RIVER. I THINK I WOULD GO OVER THE TOP AND TRY TO MAKE IT TO EXPENSIVE FOR HIM TO CALL AND LETTING HIM KNOW I HAD A MADE HAND ALSO....MYB BETTER THAN HIS STR8 2PR OR BABY FLUSH...IF TWO PR, WHY LET HIM CATCH HIS BOAT, AS ITS UNLIKEY HE HAS BIGGER FLUSH.. IF YOU DID JUST CALL,TO BUILD THE POT. IT'S DUMB.. I SAY TRY AND TAKE THE POT NOW!!...HOW'D THIS END UP ANYWAYS? NOW I'M CURIOUS....

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

raise $15k more. a good player is unlikely to bluff again in this unraised multiway pot. hero here could have any two and good player knows that, and he has played it like a flush so far (which will be fairly obvious if he calls or raises here anyways).

I reraise here and call a push. good player is not laying down a flush unless its a real baby one.

i dont want the river to beat me or kill my action, so I raise.


if GP flat calls the raise. its all going in on a non spade/board pairing river.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Someone asked me if they played this hand correctly in the Bellagio 15K WPT finals.

First day early. Very tough table. 100-200 blinds. Several limpers. Player in question limps in late position with Kx of spades. Unraised pot. Flop comes T62 with two spades. All check to player who bets 1200. Only the big blind calls. Turn is 8s. Blind checks and player bets 2500. He gets check raised 5000 more. He has 35000 left as does his opponent.

I do not want to discuss the rightness of the play up to this point. I just want to know what the player facing the 5000 check raise from a tough opponent should do now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to think I'm way ahead here, the decision is whether I want to take the pot right here or call to give him a chance to bet into me on the river. I'd rather take the pot right now than give him a chance to pass me on the river and bust me, because there is almost no way I could fold my hand at this point no matter what the river card. If he happens to have Asxs, so be it. I'd move all in.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

The 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a scare card and a tough player will raise on this scare card given where you are betting from... If he holds the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he knows you don't have the nut flush and that you will have trouble with the pressure.

Given that you have position, you might as well use it -- I would smooth call here. If you are beat, you are drawing dead and shouldn't raise. If you are ahead, you may induce more money on the river. If he has the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] but no other spade, this would leave 7 spades left and another spade coming off is over 5.5:1 against.

If no spade comes on river, I think you may have to call a big bet. If he is going to bluff all-in with Ace-high, you may have to give it up and give him credit for a tough play.

If a spade comes on the river or the board pairs, I would not call an all-in but may look him up if the bet doesn't cripple my stack.

thanks for posing the question David, I look forward to hearing your thought process.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I think I call this down. Here is my reasoning:

There are a lot of hands that could be out there I am beating, and only 1 (right now) I am not. I could see a smaller flush or straight or two pair all c/r ing the turn here (as well as a bluff or semi-bluff).

If the blind has the nut flush, he probably will bet small on the end (if the board does not pair) to encourage a call. Fine. If he does not have the nut flush, he may check the river, bet small, or bet big. Fine, too.

The only place I get killed is if he switches up and pushes the river with the nuts, which is not too likely I think since I need a big flush to call there.

If checked to on the river, I check behind.

If the board pairs on the river, I call for all the above reasons.

Basically, I think I am easily ahead enough to call smallish bets down, and I don't think a hand that beats me will push here, so even if I am beaten I should come out with at least 100BB. Easy call down IMO, but I am certainly not raising or betting again.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

Here is what my opponent could have

1) Ax of spades, your not really screwed here if your really worried about it becasue if you call the turn bet and call down on the river i can see you keeping 20 000 in chips. Though if you don't think he has it you lose everything if he does.

2) any two spades. you can take all of his money here ... probably. if i knew he had this i'd raise 15 000 more on the turn and 15000 on the river.

3) a set (10 outs) or two pair (4 outs). 10 000 in the pot already i'd again rasie it 15 000 if i knew what he had but would forget after as soon as the river card came.

4) A spades + any card. if he has it, its 7 outs i think.
i still bet 15 000 here.

5) bluff or any pair. your not going to win any more money on this pot. unless you call inducing a bet on the turn.

so ok what should you do. if i have this hand i think i am in front. I actaully thin the other player is bluffing or has A of spades or has a smaller flush. This is the BB and would rasie AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] AQ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] AJ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and i think AT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
there are just so may other hands that would be played the same way as this tough player has playeed them that aren't A9-A2 of spades.

also you havn't shown flush yet. you havn't even represented a strong hands. you have only bet when it was checked to you on each round after limping pre-flop. I almost think this is the strongest argument as to why you are ahead. I may have made the 1200 flop bet and the 2500 turn bet with nothing. The other guy had NO clue you had a strong had when he came over the top.

So i'd assume i'm way ahead and make him pay to see the river. probably 15000. if he reraises then i am sweating but wouldn't be mad at myself if i went out on this hand

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I call this down. Here is my reasoning:

There are a lot of hands that could be out there I am beating, and only 1 (right now) I am not. I could see a smaller flush or straight or two pair all c/r ing the turn here (as well as a bluff or semi-bluff).

If the blind has the nut flush, he probably will bet small on the end (if the board does not pair) to encourage a call. Fine. If he does not have the nut flush, he may check the river, bet small, or bet big. Fine, too.

The only place I get killed is if he switches up and pushes the river with the nuts, which is not too likely I think since I need a big flush to call there.

If checked to on the river, I check behind.

If the board pairs on the river, I call for all the above reasons.

Basically, I think I am easily ahead enough to call smallish bets down, and I don't think a hand that beats me will push here, so even if I am beaten I should come out with at least 100BB. Easy call down IMO, but I am certainly not raising or betting again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I think BB is making a play. Hero's play to this point has done nothing to indicate that he was on a flush draw. BB's check raise comes off as strong, but in actuality he made a less than pot-sized bet. I'd put him on A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]-x.

Between the odds of Hero folding and BB catching a spade on the river, BB is getting good odds here.

If BB had a made nut flush, why does he make this play? Would he do this just to test the waters to see if Hero has the straight flush?

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I would call, and probably make a modest bet if checked to on the river on an unpaired/non-4th-spade board.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would call, and probably make a modest bet if checked to on the river on an unpaired/non-4th-spade board.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands are going to call you on the river? You called a check raise on the turn with a flush possible, so you have to be really strong. I don't think your bet on the river is going to get called by 2pair or a set, so unless you think he has a smaller flush, your bet is only going to put you in danger of getting c/r by the nut flush.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of hands that could be out there I am beating, and only 1 (right now) I am not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the correct way to think about this is there are 7 or 8 hands out there that beat you (As3s, As4s, etc., and maybe the straight flush). I agree with the general idea that the range of hands the BB could be holding is huge, and the nut flush is a small fraction of that range.

[ QUOTE ]
...I don't think a hand that beats me will push here....

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a tough player overbet with the nuts.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If checked to on the river, I check behind.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok i think your whole post was way to passive for my taste but thats ok i win more money on this hand and you get knocked out less but the above line dosnt make any sense. if you are checked to you 99% have the better hand and should bet out 10 000 because 15%-30% of the time you are called by a worse hand and the rest of the time you don't have to show your whole cards.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I don't really agree with you. Depends on the river bet, depends on the players involved, depends on whats been going on. I think two pair or a set may very well call on river, and I think a smaller flush is a lot more likely than the nut flush, particularly because your opponent is the BB. I think calling and checking behind a check on the river (at least when a blank falls) is too weak tight, and may cost you a nice value betting opportunity.

Also, consider the risk to the nut flush of checking the nuts on the river when you just flat called him on turn....he'd have to feel EXTREMELY confident that you are going to bet for him to check the river....I think for the most part, a river check in this case is telling you that you've got the winner...

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really agree with you. Depends on the river bet, depends on the players involved, depends on whats been going on. I think two pair or a set may very well call on river, and I think a smaller flush is a lot more likely than the nut flush, particularly because your opponent is the BB. I think calling and checking behind a check on the river (at least when a blank falls) is too weak tight, and may cost you a nice value betting opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

there is no way a tough opponent is going to check and call a bet on the river with 2pr or a set.
The tough opponent might also c/r you all in with the naked ace.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

Well if a spade falls, or the board pairs, I can check behind. Even if all two pair and set hands are going to fold to any bet on the river, I think the fact that the BB is more likely to have a smaller flush than the nut flush, combined with the low likelihood of him checking the nut flush on the river, means I've still got a good value betting opportunity. If opponent does push in with a check raise, you can always reevaluate then.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If BB had a made nut flush, why does he make this play? Would he do this just to test the waters to see if Hero has the straight flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

He might do this to test the waters to see if hero will call a push.

(BTW, Go Cocks!)

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
there is no way a tough opponent is going to check and call a bet on the river with 2pr or a set.
The tough opponent might also c/r you all in with the naked ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woah. Slow down.

Yes, many tough players will call a properly-sized river bet with top two or a set. Your statement is absolutely untrue.

And as for the naked ace check-raise on the river, this is a play I don't see much of anybody making, especially after you've called the turn bet. I mean, what possible hand does he put you on that calls the turn raise, then bets on the river, and then lays down to a check raise?

He may have you pegged as weak-tight, but he's not psychic.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there is no way a tough opponent is going to check and call a bet on the river with 2pr or a set.
The tough opponent might also c/r you all in with the naked ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woah. Slow down.

Yes, many tough players will call a properly-sized river bet with top two or a set. Your statement is absolutely untrue.

And as for the naked ace check-raise on the river, this is a play I don't see much of anybody making, especially after you've called the turn bet. I mean, what possible hand does he put you on that calls the turn raise, then bets on the river, and then lays down to a check raise?

He may have you pegged as weak-tight, but he's not psychic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well a tough opponent wouldn't check the river with 2pr or a set, so if he checks the river, he either has the nuts or nothing. Neither of them are going to call the river. A tough opponent would likely send out a blocking bet on the river with all his other possible holdings.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well a tough opponent wouldn't check the river with 2pr or a set, so if he checks the river, he either has the nuts or nothing. Neither of them are going to call the river. A tough opponent would likely send out a blocking bet on the river with all his other possible holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, alrighty then.

I agree with everything here except the notion that he will not bet with the nuts.

Let's say this tough player is headsup against, oh, say, YOU. He knows that you understand the fact that a bet might very well mean a blocking bet, as outlined above. He has the nuts. He bets out for value as opposed to checking, where he knows that you know you're not getting paid if he has nothing, and you're getting murdered by the nuts.

I think a decent number of tough players will bet out at a blank on the river, especially against the right opponent.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

Reraise 15,000. If he does happen to have the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], make him pay a bad price for his draw (or move all his chips in) or fold. Same with two pair or a set. Unless I think my opponent may potentially bluff big into me on the river if I call on the turn, I think there is too much money in the pot to flat call and let my opponent have a now free chance to draw out on the river....only nut flush is beating me on the turn, but many more hands could be raising me...stay aggressive, make them pay.

And again, it's significant that the opponent is the BB, rather than a limper...

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

If I put the BB exactly on a straight flush/A flush and play it that way, I should probably quit poker now. I don't doubt that he *can* have it, but chances are he doesn't and is bluffing or semibluffing with something else (quite possibly a smaller flush in which case I take his chips).

The question is if he calls a big turn reraise with anything less than a flush. I don't think he does if he's that good. Another thing I am considering is that while the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] may semibluff here, if he makes it on the river he won't make a bet I can't call, so letting him see a cheapish card is not something I'm horribly scared of.

With all that in mind, I think I reraise another 5K or so. If he is bluffing, a tough player will probably give up when he gets called on the turn so I'm not likely to see more of his chips anyway; if he is semibluffing and has any sort of draw, I want more chips in there now before we see a river. If he pushes, I call and hope I see a Q high flush.

(Why 5K, not 15K? 15K is awfully close to pot committing me if he reraises again and at *that* point the nuts is a lot more likely.)

If he calls, I'll make a smallish value bet on a blank river. If he checkraises *that*, well, I'll think about it when the time comes.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I raise another 10k and strongly consider mucking if my
opponent comes over the top for the rest of his chips. I
do not want to give my opponent a chance to fill up on the
river if he does have a set or two pair, but if I get
raised again I will have a hard time believing that my
opponent has something other than the ace high flush. If
he calls, I will check behind on any river other than the
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. If he calls and pushes the river, I will have a
very difficult decision, and will have to think a while,
with my decision depending on how I felt about the way he
bet, and the card that came off. I still have 20k after the
raise if I decide to fold, which at the 100-200 level still
gives me time to rebuild. But my reasoning could be wrong;
I am not a very good no limit player. Perhaps raising 15k
instead of 10k would do a better job of preventing him from
seeing the river if he had a set or two pair or the naked
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], but if I decide to muck, I would rather have 20k
left than 15k. He might read through the 10k raise and push
with one of these hands, though. I am uncertain of whether
the 10k bet or 15k bet would be better at accomplishing what
I want.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If checked to on the river, I check behind.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok i think your whole post was way to passive for my taste but thats ok i win more money on this hand and you get knocked out less but the above line dosnt make any sense. if you are checked to you 99% have the better hand and should bet out 10 000 because 15%-30% of the time you are called by a worse hand and the rest of the time you don't have to show your whole cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I glossed over a lot of my thought process, so let me go into more detail. (You still may think I am being too passive, but at least you will have a more complete picture of my resoning.)


First lets recap the action:

The BB got a free pass in a multi-way pot. We don't know exactly how many people played, but let's say 5 or 6 to the flop, since that fits.

The flop comes a ragged two tone T62. Checked around to the hero makes a pot sized bet (probably in last to act, but there could be one other active player behind him). The big blind calls, getting 2-1, with several people to act behind him.

Turn comes 8 completing the flush. BB checks, Hero bets about 2/3 the pot, BB c/r giving the hero around 2.5:1 on a call.

So, what could the BB have here?

Axs for the nut flush is one posibility. The flop is pretty tricky for this hand, but certainly this could be his hand with the play through the turn.

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] x where x matches the non spade on the board. Again, this fits the action though again this is a tricky hand on the flop. I think if this is the case the T on the flop is a spade, since TPTK + bd flush would probably fire a bet at this flop. Maybe the x does not have to pair, but if BB calls with just a backdoor flush he probably calls with any 2 and tries to take the pot away later.

2p: Again, certainly possible. The BB could have anything, and the flop is not very threatening. Easy to see slow playing this since the flush is the only plausible draw. This also fits with the turn c/r.

Set: The 2p analysis plays just as well for a set here.

79: Unlikely that the BB would have stuck around with a gut shot unless he was planning on making a move regardless.

2 random cards: He may have put the hero on a steal and was planning to make a move, which he did on the turn after a scare card came. (And he didn't even need a scare card, since he called on the flop and really could have anything.)

2 non ace spades: This is also possible.

Now, how will the BB react to a raise with each of these.

With the nut flush, hero is hosed. He is losing at least his his raise and possibly his whole stack.

With any other hand, BB has to realize that he has at most 10 outs if he is behind, and is at best a 4:1 dog to win the hand. If he thinks that the hero is capable of bluffing here, then maybe he makes a call or maybe not, because there is a good chance he will face a tough river decision if he calls the reraise. With the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he knows he has at worst 6 nut outs, but then it is also more likely that Hero has a big made hand if he raised without the nut flush card.

All in all, I don't see the BB playing on without the nuts here very often. It is just a horrible spot for him.

Now, hero knows he is way ahead or drawing dead here. If he is way ahead, he is better than 4-1 to win the pot, and BB may even be drawing dead with a smaller flush. BB will likely make a blocking bet if he has a hand, and may even make a post oak bluff on the end. Also, if he has the nuts he will probably make about the same size bet he would make in the above cases or try for a check raise.

So, what is the cost of giving a free card here?

Let's take the worst case scenario: BB is 4-1 against. Lets assume he bets 10K on the end if he hits, and mixes up betting 10k and checking if he misses.

So, 20% of the time you lose the 23k in the pot at the turn plus 10k on the end.

80% of the time you win an extra 5k.

So, in the case where you are a 4-1 favorite going in, your EV by not betting is .2*33 + .8*5, or about -2.2K. So, IF you know he has top set raising the turn is correct.

When you consider that he may have hands like the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 outs) 2p (4 outs), nothing at all (0 outs), a straight (0 outs), a smaller flush (0 outs) and that he may bet any of these on the river, I cannot see how raising the turn is right even if you know he does not have the nuts.

(Granted, I am assuming that BB will lay down a lot of hands here, but really, what choice does he have? You are both tough players unless he thinks you will get involved with 40% of your chips on a bluff or semi-bluff when you have a deep stack fairly often, he has to respect your reraise).

So, to sum up, I see this as a case where you are way ahead or way behind (actually drawing dead if you are behind). You will make more when you are ahead by calling down and lose less when you are behind.

I did not go into the case of calling the turn and betting when checked to on the river, but I think Nick B. has covered that pretty well. If you bet the river in this case and BB pushes, what do you do? Call and hope he is bluffing with a naked ace?

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

hi johhny beef,
i think your line is one of the worst nothing personal of course. minraising and folding on the turn seems criminal as does folding if called on the river. our players hand is fairly well disguised and if he is up against another flush it rates to probably be a hand he is getting paid off by not the other way around imho. depending on the read of my opponent i would either call if i could expect to get bet into on the river (a straight or two pair that might be currently trying to charge me for the 4th spade) or raise if i think he has a set, or As/pair x). 15,000 buy in or not im going to have to be facing a monster bet to laydown the king high flush in this unraised pot even if its from the big blind. i think my default move here is too raise it up to about 11-12k ( im not too good at math but this i think gives him improper odds to draw to a paired board or 4th spade.) if i lose him on the turn thats life i just dont think a tough player is going to bluff again on the river if you smooth call. and finally if he has the nut flush i hope i make the read on the turn or river and can get away but im not sure if i would. once again ive only gotten this far in the thread and im not trying to be disrespectful just mho.
jason

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

He might do this to test the waters to see if hero will call a push.
excellent point, a play definitely in a tough players arsenal, although i still think the default is raise it up on the turn.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I haven't read through the other answers, so I apologize if this duplicates.

I don't think you can call here. There are 7 spades (excluding A that gives you the nuts) and 9 cards that pair the board. That gives him 16 cards to bet that you can't call. If any of the other 29 cards comes off, I don't think you get another chip from him.

Since it doesn't say, I'll assume 5 people in the pot, including the small blind. That's 3400 in the pot after flop betting. If you call, you've allowed him to put in 7500 (calling 2500 and raising 5000), making it an 18,400 pot.

He's a 1.8125/1 dog to get his scare card, but if you just call, you're paying him 2.45/1 on his 7500 if it hits (assuming he pushes and you fold). If you don't fold, there's a good chance that his "scare card" has actually made his hand.

Essentially if you call, you're giving him 16 outs.

I don't think you can fold here, as clearly the tough player can make this raise with so many hands, even if he knows he's way behind (especially if he has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and knows you don't have the nuts). I think you either have to push or bet an amount that makes his implied odds poor enough where he can't call the reraise.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I will just add that I might bet the river for value if a spade fell and I was checked to, but it would be very player-dependent.

I agree that someone with the Ace of Spades who catches the 4th flush card will usually bet the river if first to act...but there are some crafty S.O.B.'s out there too, and there is a good chance that a hand that called the check-raise on the Turn (like mine) might have enough to value-bet the river, or much more remotely, might try to pick up the pot. So for me a final value-bet if checked to on a 4th spade river would not be an "auto-play".

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I call the turn, and see how the river develops. This is the best way to extract the most money out of a smaller flush, and the best way to not go broke against the ace high flush. I'm not that worried about a set in this spot.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

That is pretty much my thinking, too.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Someone asked me if they played this hand correctly in the Bellagio 15K WPT finals.

First day early. Very tough table. 100-200 blinds. Several limpers. Player in question limps in late position with Kx of spades. Unraised pot. Flop comes T62 with two spades. All check to player who bets 1200. Only the big blind calls. Turn is 8s. Blind checks and player bets 2500. He gets check raised 5000 more. He has 35000 left as does his opponent.

I do not want to discuss the rightness of the play up to this point. I just want to know what the player facing the 5000 check raise from a tough opponent should do now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, the definition of "tough player" makes this tricky for me, because is this "tough player" one who would frequently bluff here? Is he one that would be willing to gamble on calling a raise with the naked As? Could he be capable of confidently putting me on the flush, or could he be pushing a set, two pair, or a straight?

I feel I'm ahead here most of the time (a King-High flush will do that to a guy) And I feel the flat-call actually puts a lot more pressure on him than raising. Obviously you're giving him the chance to outdraw you. But you also have him in an awkward as hell position if he doesn't improve. I think I'm apt to see a sizeable river bet followup with the majority of hands I think he could have, and I'm extremely far ahead of the majority of them. And if you make a sizeable raise, you're going to let him get away from most hands you beat, with the (definitely not to be underestimated) chance he's got a smaller flush.

I'm always so wishy washy on these posts since I have to take such huge liberties with assuming what the given player description means.

I apologize if this is redundant, I just like to post my opinion without reading others.

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I think a raise of about 15k is in order, which i think might be enough to fold a pair and naked ace. If I got moved in on I would really be in the tank but would probably have to get broke with the second nuts in this spot.

Also, perhaps the strong player wouldnt re-raise with the nut flush and I could show down after an attempted check raise on the river and leave myself with a nice amount of chips.

All in all I would probably get broke here but the 15k raise seems right, It just seems like an attempt to blow me off my hand.

FJM

Re: How Would You Play This Hand?
 

I could come up with some brilliant move, but I would probably not actually do that, I would probably push and pray.

Re: Push All-In
 

[ QUOTE ]
Someone asked me if they played this hand correctly in the Bellagio 15K WPT finals.

First day early. Very tough table. 100-200 blinds. Several limpers. Player in question limps in late position with Kx of spades. Unraised pot. Flop comes T62 with two spades. All check to player who bets 1200. Only the big blind calls. Turn is 8s. Blind checks and player bets 2500. He gets check raised 5000 more. He has 35000 left as does his opponent.

I do not want to discuss the rightness of the play up to this point. I just want to know what the player facing the 5000 check raise from a tough opponent should do now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, so we've got a pot of roughly 10-12K in chips. Each player has 35K left and blinds are only 100/200. Based on your opponents play I believe he:

1. Flopped a pair or two on the flop (or caught his 2nd pair on the turn). He is trying to see if you really have the flush with this bet, and trying to represent it himself. Maybe he feels since it's so early in the tourney that you are a LAG player and trying to push him around with a crap hand.

2. The player also has a flush, although in all liklihood a smaller flush.

3. The player had a straight draw on the flop that paid off on the turn. He may fear the flush and is betting out to test you for this and see if his straight is any good.

I'd push all-in. It's early in the tournament, and this "tough" opponent is obviously capable of making a laydown. If he does have two pair (or a set, although I doubt this) then he's smart enough to dump it and realize he's up against a made flush when you move all-in (if you just smooth-call you're giving him the opportunity to outdraw you)

If your opponent has made a flush also, again I feel you're ahead and your push all-in will get called.

If your opponent has his straight, and he's "tough" he will likely lay it down to your all-in. So you'll miss out on making more chips there.

Yes, it is possible he's got the Ace-high flush, but I don't think so. If he's a "tough" opponent he's going to want to trap you with the nut flush, not push you out of the pot. I think you've got him beat, and your best option is to move-in. If he calls, you'll likely win. And if he's got the two pair or a set he'll likely fold it to your flush and not outdraw you.

Re: Push All-In
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, so we've got a pot of roughly 10-12K in chips. Each player has 35K left and blinds are only 100/200. Based on your opponents play I believe he:

1. Flopped a pair or two on the flop (or caught his 2nd pair on the turn). He is trying to see if you really have the flush with this bet, and trying to represent it himself. Maybe he feels since it's so early in the tourney that you are a LAG player and trying to push him around with a crap hand.

2. The player also has a flush, although in all liklihood a smaller flush.

3. The player had a straight draw on the flop that paid off on the turn. He may fear the flush and is betting out to test you for this and see if his straight is any good.

I'd push all-in. It's early in the tournament, and this "tough" opponent is obviously capable of making a laydown. If he does have two pair (or a set, although I doubt this) then he's smart enough to dump it and realize he's up against a made flush when you move all-in (if you just smooth-call you're giving him the opportunity to outdraw you)

If your opponent has made a flush also, again I feel you're ahead and your push all-in will get called.

If your opponent has his straight, and he's "tough" he will likely lay it down to your all-in. So you'll miss out on making more chips there.

Yes, it is possible he's got the Ace-high flush, but I don't think so. I think you've got him beat, and your best option is to move-in. If he calls, you'll likely win. And if he's got the two pair or a set he'll likely fold it to your flush and not outdraw you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your goal of the tournament was winning the most number of pots, this would be a good strategy.