QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

Your thoughts here...I felt lost, as I was out of position with two cold callers. The raise on the flop only confused me more.

UTG + 1: Vpip = 25% PFR = 4.5%
MP1: only 38 hands - seems decent, maybe a little passive


Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.83 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (9.83 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 9.83 BB

I usually feel that a flop raise indicates a good draw more often than not, so I think a reraise is in order. Not sure why I backed off here. I also think I have to bet the river and fold to a raise.

How bad was my play, and what do you put these two players on here?

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

Well, they're both not awful and they cold-called a pre-flop raise from EP. For UTG I am thinking ATs, KTs, maybe pocket jacks or nines, or maybe just Ax of hearts. MP1 could have a wider range of hands but I think he is most likely to have top pair, a flush draw, or both. Seems unlikely that he'll have two pair on this board.

I would definitely bet the river.

NT

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

You are right, three-bet the flop! Put pressure on MP. Bet the river (I call a raise against unknown and most knowns). You like your hand a lot less than me.

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

definite flop 3bet. definite river value bet.

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

I think you guys are right...I missed two (and possibly four) small bets on the flop, and maybe another big bet on the river.

UTG +1 had A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
MP1 had 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

FWIW -- You are going to fold me with any more betting, whether on the flop or the river. I might cryingly call another bet with 66 on the flop -- hoping to pick up the set on the turn, but I know it to be a bad play and I think I should stop doing it. But I know a lot of these Party Poker guys just keep calling.

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

3-bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river. You have a pretty big hand, play it that way.

SGS

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river. You have a pretty big hand, play it that way.

SGS

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

You need to 3-bet the flop there. Also, checking the river is absolutely awful. No 2-ways about it.

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

I don't know whether you were trying to apply the "stop and go" tactic here, but there is no such thing in limit poker (which may explain why you butchered this hand).

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

There has been plenty of discussion about 3-betting the flop, which I think is a no brainer here.

But when you say you should bet the river, but would fold to a raise? Dont you think alot of hands could raise you on the river with any T? By then, I think you are folding alot of winning hands if you folded to a raise on the river the way this hand played out.

Nick

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

This isn't even close. Reraise the flop and keep firing. You definetely have the best hand. A flopped set of tens or A7 or some such on the turn would be bad, but what are you gonna do? 3 betting the flop will hopefully make it heads up where you can induce a turn or river fold, unless they have that set and should cap it (so at least you know you are beat). Cold calling with A7 is definetely possible and tens is even more likely. Either way, you are the favorite and should play it accordingly to maintain that advantage.

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

is calling the flop and check/raising the turn an option?

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

Against some opponents, calling and trying to check-raise the turn would be okay, but against an unkown opponent, it's very risky because the flop raiser could easily be planning to check behind. He is in last position against two opponents and raised after a bet and a call which will frequently indicate a draw (or something else) that wants a free card on the turn. Alternately, he may not be planning to take a free card right now, but a turn card may end up coming that scares him out of betting. Generally, three-betting the flop in this situation is safer. If you know that this particular oppponent will always bet again on the turn, then waiting until then can be considred. However, note that if you do so you are giving correct odds to UTG+1 to call the single flop raise with a hand like JT (I don't know what kinds of hands people tend to coldcall with in this game). Eliminating him here with two more cold (or charging him to draw) isn't a bad idea.

Re: QQ Stop & Go & Stop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know whether you were trying to apply the "stop and go" tactic here, but there is no such thing in limit poker

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what you mean by saying that there "is no such thing" as this tactic. Maybe it's not a tactic you use and maybe it's not one that your usual opponents use, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. That doesn't even really make sense. It's just as possible in limit hold 'em as in other games to call a raise and then bet out on the next street (usually done to deny a free card if you suspect your opponent ,ay have been raising with a draw), whether you do it or not.

That said, I certainly agree that this was not the time for it.