America won the vietnam war
 

Sometimes I get a thought that goes against majority opinion, and I want to see how far off I am.

The war in vietnam, was really a war to contain atheist communism. This containment was the actual war and not the battle of whether or not vietnam fell to conmunism. The war in vietnam had contries scared to revolt to communism for fear of USA interference. If these contries would have gone communist they likely would have helped the USSR with trade relations and strengh in numbers. There are currently only 5 contries left under communist rule. So not only was the vietnam war a success in containment, it stemed the tide of a political movement that was sweeping europe and eventually most of the globe, and was victorious in not only containing but also to start to start the attrition of communist state. Is it possible to lose the battle of vietnam, yet win the war on containment. I think it is, and as far as I know no one else has agreed with me.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

Ok, I'll bite.

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The war in vietnam had contries scared to revolt to communism for fear of USA interference.

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What countries? Laos? Cambodia?

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So not only was the vietnam war a success in containment, it stemed the tide of a political movement that was sweeping europe and eventually most of the globe, and was victorious in not only containing but also to start to start the attrition of communist state.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain the connection between the outcome of the war and the events you cite.

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Is it possible to lose the battle of vietnam, yet win the war on containment.

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And its possible that communism was doomed regardless. X followed Y is not equal to Y caused X.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
What countries? Laos? Cambodia?

[/ QUOTE ] Contries in Europe, Africa, and South America. It's impossible to say which ones becasue it didn't happen.

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain the connection between the outcome of the war and the events you cite.


[/ QUOTE ] I was hoping to get some help in this regard. But the agreument relies on the war stoping futher spread of communism based on the fear of retribution. Stopping that spread was the real reason the "cold war" was successful.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
And its possible that communism was doomed regardless. X followed Y is not equal to Y caused X.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also knows as the 'Post hoc, ergo propter hoc' fallacy -

Besides, we all know that once Reagan stared down the Soviets, looked them right in the eye, and shook his fist in just the right way, the walls of inherently-bad and impossibly-workable communism came tumbling down. Just look at the timeline.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

The communist leaders of Vietnam won the Vietnam war. America and Vietnam lost. The latter much more then the former.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
The war in vietnam, was really a war to contain atheist communism.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. That's what the Cold War was. We won the Cold War. But, we lost in Vietnam.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. That's what the Cold War was. We won the Cold War. But, we lost in Vietnam.

[/ QUOTE ] Is there any way for me to draw the conclusion that without the Vietnam war the Cold war would not have succeded. Where can I look, to find out if this is true? What sort of arguements can I make so I'm just not blowing air?

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

You answering you own question.

If anything Vietnam hurt the cold war.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
If anything Vietnam hurt the cold war.

[/ QUOTE ] Knowing that the USA is serious about stoping the spread of communism wasn't a major deterant for contries considering that political system.

How long does it noramly take from, A few people within a country who want to change ideologies, to the revolution of that country.

Actually I'm gonna have to do some more research on this. Considering both Loas and Combodia went communist in the same year that the vietnam war ended. As well as Afganistan acouple of years after.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

What happened in Vietnam had little to do with communism. I suspect even the communist didn't believe in communism. They discarded it as a political system fairly quickly. Today there the only part of communism left is the dictorial one party part. Vietnam has a mostly capitalist economy with all of the usual third world corruption.

In order to gain independence from France the Vietnamese needed weapons and support. The US shuned them, so they turned to the Soviets. I don't think they really cared who gave them the support and they adopted whatever idealology lead to independence. Most Vietnamese didn't know or care about communism, they just saw the US as another invader. They fought against something rather then for something. Vietnam was about nationalism not communism.

US pressence in Vietnam was seen as imperialistic throughout the region and thus we lost credibility and support in other countries.

Without US involvement in the region things would have turned out exactely the same. Yes, it all might have been better if we won, but that was not possible.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

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I think it is, and as far as I know no one else has agreed with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I've heard this argument made. It claims that the US needed to play a limited role in Vietnam in the interest of perceptions and containment, but never needed to win. Therefore, everything more or less went as planned and as was necissary.

The more common arguments believe the war to be the greatest failure of our history. They are: 1) The US, obessed with containment and Soviet perceptions, escalated an unnecessary war in an irrelevant region and 2) The US was justified to go into Vietnam in stopping the spread of communism, but too many limitations were placed on our armed forces for them to win.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What countries? Laos? Cambodia?

[/ QUOTE ] Contries in Europe, Africa, and South America. It's impossible to say which ones becasue it didn't happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Y'know, I have a rock on my desk that keeps lions from attacking me and it works 100% of the time. How do I know? I've never been attacked by lions.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

How does it work?

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]

How does it work?

[/ QUOTE ]

It scares them all away. Lord only knows how many times I could have been attacked by a lion if I didn't have it.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

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Quote:
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Quote:
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What countries? Laos? Cambodia?


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Contries in Europe, Africa, and South America. It's impossible to say which ones becasue it didn't happen.


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Y'know, I have a rock on my desk that keeps lions from attacking me and it works 100% of the time. How do I know? I've never been attacked by lions

[/ QUOTE ] This doens't follow at all. Please rephrase your attack. For a cheap shot you could just say that Loas and Cambodia did fall into a communist state.

Or if you want to actually contribute you could point out the falicies of the Domino theory in regards to nations. Or you could point out that new communist states wouldn't have to be against america. Both of which where accepted at the time.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How does it work?

[/ QUOTE ]

It scares them all away. Lord only knows how many times I could have been attacked by a lion if I didn't have it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wish to buy one of your rocks!!

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

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[ QUOTE ]
No. That's what the Cold War was. We won the Cold War. But, we lost in Vietnam.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any way for me to draw the conclusion that without the Vietnam war the Cold war would not have succeded. ?

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It's an arguable point. You could say the Communists victory in Vietnam was a pyrrhic victory.

I don't think it's a good arguement. The Soviet Union was very active in Central America after the U.S. defeat in Vietnam. They were enboldened by the U.S.'s defeat.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

If you think that the government in Vietnam was a threat to spread to other parts of the region, then u have a limited knowledge of Asian history/culture.

Even if the United States did successfully stop the spread of communism, so [censored] what? Communism was completely overblown as a threat to this country. None of the countries in world history have ever had a real communist government. I assume you've never read the Communist Manifesto.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How does it work?

[/ QUOTE ]

It scares them all away. Lord only knows how many times I could have been attacked by a lion if I didn't have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lord knows how many times? This one's easy .. I know how many times.

All of 'em, my friend. All of 'em.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

"The communists."

Ho Chi Minh had very little to do with other communists. What Tito did, what Stalin did, what Allende did, had nothing at all to do with the war in Vietnam. It was only the United States that saw the war as a fight against international communism. The Soviets and Chinese did not help Ho Chi Minh at all until after the United States got involved. And the only reason the United States got involved is that France successfully framed what was a colonial and civil war in Cold War terms that, after Mao took over in China, allowed the conservative elements in American foreign policy making to win out over the more liberal elements who didn't want to make a stand in Vietnam.

Interestingly, those liberal elements wanted to not support the French not because they wanted to do nothing about communism in Asia, but rather because they felt that coming to France's aid would abet the cause of communism in Asia. They were, of course, correct.

Communism is on the way out because it's an inefficient and inhumane way to manage a country. Even the supposedly hardline Chinese communists are capitalists now.

The communists won in Vietnam not because they were communists, but because they were nationalists.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
The communists won in Vietnam not because they were communists, but because they were nationalists.


[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly do you mean by this? That they fought harder? Neither the NVA or the VC ever once captured a square foot of land in South Vietnam nor won a single battle while the US was there. They were obliterated top to bottom.

Its a shame to still see the myths created by the ultra-left still resonating 40 years later in this thread. I sincerely hope you don't think our boys were "baby killers and rapists".

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

I think your thinking is seriously flawed here. The US vs. communism in major "hot" wars is 0-1-1 (Vietnam-loss, Korea-stalemate). The greatest US miltary success vs. communists was against a rag tag band in Grenada. We have not defeated China on the battlefield. Yet China is now communist in name only - visit Shanghai and you'll see what I mean. Communism will always fail sooner or later on its own - military action is not necessary to defeat it. In the decades after WWII the US screwed with a lot of people's lives, propping up brutal thugs like Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire just because they weren't communist. I'm sure the residents of today's Deomcratic Republic of the Congo would give us plenty thanks for that. Better to just but out and let things take their own course.

BTW, the few million Vietnamese (not to mention Hmong) living among us today would also tend to disagree with you on who won the war.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The communists won in Vietnam not because they were communists, but because they were nationalists.


[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly do you mean by this? That they fought harder? Neither the NVA or the VC ever once captured a square foot of land in South Vietnam nor won a single battle while the US was there. They were obliterated top to bottom.

Its a shame to still see the myths created by the ultra-left still resonating 40 years later in this thread. I sincerely hope you don't think our boys were "baby killers and rapists".

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. To lower the discourse even further.....you're a joke.

Out of curiosity though, which blatant reality were you refering to as an "ultra-left myth?": a) that we could not win the war in Vietnam and retreated (ie. lost) or b) that HCM and the VC were nationalists first and communists second?

Guess you could also throw in a completely unwarrented mention of baby killers if you want to.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

Wow, just...wow. I had no idea it was this bad.

First of all

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that HCM and the VC

[/ QUOTE ]

Please go look up Viet Cong and NVA. Know the difference. Get atleast a clue.

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that we could not win the war in Vietnam and retreated

[/ QUOTE ]

HW assignment #2, go look up what our objective was in Vietnam. If you answer "to win the war", I'm sorry, youre wrong and only further proving my point.

One more thing, youre lying when you say that US forces ever retreated from NVA forces.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
What countries? Laos? Cambodia?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yeah, those, plus countries recently breaking free from British colonialism were under heavy assault from Communist revolutionaries. The 2nd largest political party in India at the time was the Communist Party.

Particularly in Southeast Asia you had Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Phillippines were all dealing with rapidly growing Communist insurgencies.

Fortunately, as a result of our extended containment of Vietnam, Communism did not spread to many of these countries , where an economic "miracle" took place in their eyes, a "flower blossoming" they put it, and following our pullout from Vietnam our trade with these countries surpassed even our trade with Europe.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you think that the government in Vietnam was a threat to spread to other parts of the region, then u have a limited knowledge of Asian history/culture.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're being sarcastic, but incase you aren't, then for the record...

A) The region was in shambles

B) There's this thing that happens following a Communist revolution...millions and millions of people die. Ever heard horror stories from the Vietnamese communities in Cali? Ever heard of the Cambodian killing fields?

C) Note that when Communist revolutions happen in one country, they tend to happen in neighboring countries as well, hence the threat to millions of lives by "the government in Vietnam"

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
Communism was completely overblown as a threat to this country.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just not true. The Soviet Union was a genuine threat. Their stated goal was to spread their form of communism (whether it's "pure" communism or not) worldwide. They were more than willing to use military force to accomplish their goals.

Half of Europe was conquered by the Soviets during World War II. They expanded their military influence to Southeast Asia and Central America. The thread Moscow represented was great than that of Nazi Germany.

Say anything
 

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It's impossible to say which ones because it didn't happen.

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This is why when I open 2+2 Politics I also open Word -- and copy down text. If only sitcom writers knew about us.

Re: Say anything
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's impossible to say which ones because it didn't happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why when I open 2+2 Politics I also open Word -- and copy down text. If only sitcom writers knew about us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get jokes..

well some of time

Days of infamy
 

Very, very briefly:

- A war between A and B is considered won by A when country A occupies or dictates terms to country B. Clearly, America lost the war in Vietnam, in military and political terms.

- America's objective in Vietnam was ostensibly to contain communism but, in fact, aimed at containing a national liberation movement. The Vietnamese were fighting against the French colonialists for decades - and the Yanks, instead of coming in as liberators, simply took over where the French left off.

- When there is a national liberation struggle, the side of those who seek liberation is usually radicalised politically. The proper way of defusing that radicalism is accomodating their national liberation aspirations and drawing them into the circle of western democracies through diplomacy, trade, etc.

- The Vietnamese always wanted peace and co-operation with the West. (The evidence for this is in everything they did and still do, now.) America feared that China's communists would over-run the whole South-East Asia if the NVA would win, but, in fact, China and Vietnam have been mortal enemies historically. (Proof : The China-Vietnam war that broke out after the Americans left!)

- This posture resulted in America losing a great deal of the "goodwill capital", to use a Bush phrase, it has accumulated by helping defeat Nazism and imperialist Japan. Instead of a post-colonialist, liberating power, Americans appeared to come on as the supreme neo-colonialists.

- This perception (not unjust) of America hurt the country a lot in its Cold War effort, in the sense that its credibility and its popularity retreated tremendously among the (anti-communist) peoples of Western Europe. People who would have been otherwise natural allies to America's efforts against the Soviets were becoming hostile against the US and NATO.

- The creation of the European Union, currently a formidable antagonist to American economic supremacy, began as a strictly commecrial & customs venture, but soon took on a very political character, aiming at two things : (1) Peace among Germany and France, and (2) Setting Europe on a course that would give it some independence from American post-WWII influence. The EU's progress towards a political union was probably precipitated by America's growing reliance on military means to "solve problems" and fueled by widespread anti-Americanism.

- The American errors of the war in Vietnam became obvious when the North won : There was no bloodshed; China attacked Vietnam; the other countries did not fall "like dominoes"; Vietnam eventually, and all too quickly, turned its eyes westwards; etc.

- To compound their mistakes in Vietnam, and probably out of pure pique, the United States refused to support Vietnam when Vietnam tried to put down the murderous regime of the Khmer Rouge and stop the massacres. Instead, the US allied itself diplomatically with the Khmer Rouge in all the world forums. Days of infamy.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's just not true. The Soviet Union was a genuine threat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to say that the Cold War somehow wasn't serious. Just that Communism as an ideolgy, not whatever the [censored] the Soviets were doing, was not a big threat at all to the United States. The Soviets were ENORMOUS nationalists, which is very opposite the doctrine of Communism. They weren't trying to spread Communsim to the rest of the world as a liberating force, they just wanted to dominate and occupy those places.

Re: Days of infamy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very, very briefly:

- A war between A and B is considered won by A when country A occupies or dictates terms to country B. Clearly, America lost the war in Vietnam, in military and political terms.

- America's objective in Vietnam was ostensibly to contain communism but, in fact, aimed at containing a national liberation movement. The Vietnamese were fighting against the French colonialists for decades - and the Yanks, instead of coming in as liberators, simply took over where the French left off.

- When there is a national liberation struggle, the side of those who seek liberation is usually radicalised politically. The proper way of defusing that radicalism is accomodating their national liberation aspirations and drawing them into the circle of western democracies through diplomacy, trade, etc.

- The Vietnamese always wanted peace and co-operation with the West. (The evidence for this is in everything they did and still do, now.) America feared that China's communists would over-run the whole South-East Asia if the NVA would win, but, in fact, China and Vietnam have been mortal enemies historically. (Proof : The China-Vietnam war that broke out after the Americans left!)

- This posture resulted in America losing a great deal of the "goodwill capital", to use a Bush phrase, it has accumulated by helping defeat Nazism and imperialist Japan. Instead of a post-colonialist, liberating power, Americans appeared to come on as the supreme neo-colonialists.

- This perception (not unjust) of America hurt the country a lot in its Cold War effort, in the sense that its credibility and its popularity retreated tremendously among the (anti-communist) peoples of Western Europe. People who would have been otherwise natural allies to America's efforts against the Soviets were becoming hostile against the US and NATO.

- The creation of the European Union, currently a formidable antagonist to American economic supremacy, began as a strictly commecrial & customs venture, but soon took on a very political character, aiming at two things : (1) Peace among Germany and France, and (2) Setting Europe on a course that would give it some independence from American post-WWII influence. The EU's progress towards a political union was probably precipitated by America's growing reliance on military means to "solve problems" and fueled by widespread anti-Americanism.

- The American errors of the war in Vietnam became obvious when the North won : There was no bloodshed; China attacked Vietnam; the other countries did not fall "like dominoes"; Vietnam eventually, and all too quickly, turned its eyes westwards; etc.

- To compound their mistakes in Vietnam, and probably out of pure pique, the United States refused to support Vietnam when Vietnam tried to put down the murderous regime of the Khmer Rouge and stop the massacres. Instead, the US allied itself diplomatically with the Khmer Rouge in all the world forums. Days of infamy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh hahaha. Good one. Did I ever tell you the one about the difference between light and hard?

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]

B) There's this thing that happens following a Communist revolution...millions and millions of people die. Ever heard horror stories from the Vietnamese communities in Cali? Ever heard of the Cambodian killing fields?

C) Note that when Communist revolutions happen in one country, they tend to happen in neighboring countries as well, hence the threat to millions of lives by "the government in Vietnam"

[/ QUOTE ]

The Hmong people in Laos are still being butchered by Communist troops.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

Henry Kissinger stated in an interview that he felt they were wrong about the policy of containment and that it wouldn't have made a bit of overall difference if they were in Vietnam or not...

that would almost certainly qualify the war as a complete failure in terms of meeting objectives -

somehow, his opinion carries more weight with me then yours...

RB

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
This doens't follow at all. Please rephrase your attack. For a cheap shot you could just say that Loas and Cambodia did fall into a communist state.

[/ QUOTE ]

It follows perfectly. There is absolutely no causal link between America's involvement in Vietnam and your myriad of unnamed countries which didn't fall to Communism, but would have if America hadn't been involved in Vietnam. In the same way, there is no causal link between a rock sitting on my desk and my not being attacked by lions.

It's a silly argument and you're a silly person.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is absolutely no causal link between America's involvement in Vietnam and your myriad of unnamed countries which didn't fall to Communism, but would have if America hadn't been involved in Vietnam

[/ QUOTE ] This is a cogent point, one which not everyone agrees with. The possibilty of losing the cold war was real, unlike your tiger attacks. And for the record, I am a silly man.

From what I understand both loas and cambodia went communist in the same year the the vietnam war ended. Yet the domino theory is widly regarded as bubcuss.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, just...wow. I had no idea it was this bad.

First of all

[ QUOTE ]
that HCM and the VC

[/ QUOTE ]

Please go look up Viet Cong and NVA. Know the difference. Get atleast a clue.

[ QUOTE ]
that we could not win the war in Vietnam and retreated

[/ QUOTE ]

HW assignment #2, go look up what our objective was in Vietnam. If you answer "to win the war", I'm sorry, youre wrong and only further proving my point.

One more thing, youre lying when you say that US forces ever retreated from NVA forces.

[/ QUOTE ]


1) Look, America could, not, win, the war. We could not defeat the enemy or even "save" the South from falling to the North. Our retreat, yes our proud soldiers did retreat, led to the fall of South Vietnam to communism. You are free to argue that our containment was effective or that a effective "message" was sent to China or the Soviets that we meant business. This points are clearly in dispute. However, that fact that we won the War in Vietnam is not in dispute except by Ann Coulter I believe. To say that we never wanted or needed to truly win in Vietnam is really quite misguided.

2) You don't seem to realize the unimportantance of facts like "we never lost a battle" and "the enemy never captured territory." This shows a profound lack of knowlegde about the unconventional aspects of this war as opposed to say WWI, which I am sure you know and are just feigning ignorance. Some pundits like to say the exact same thing about Iraq today. However, if the insurgency is a) larger in number and b) launching more attacks than before, then how do we like the "never lost a battle" argument in proving that we are winning the war? We never lost a battle in Vietnam, but we did lose the war in Vietnam. We retreated. See how this works?

Also, you seem to be more interested in sarcasm and arrogance than actaully dicussing the point. As if the mainstream pereption of the War is just so wrong that you can't even begin to argue against it. LOL.

edit: see Cyrus post too please.

That was not history
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Soviet Union was a genuine threat. Their stated goal was to spread their form of communism (whether it's "pure" communism or not) worldwide. They were more than willing to use military force to accomplish their goals.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be true only if Stalin and stalinism never happened. The Soviet Union, after World War II, continued to act as it did before the war, and that had nothing to do with "world revolution" or "expanding the socialist camp". Stalin was totally against "foreign adventurism". His aim has always been to strengthen the "soviet cradle of the revolution", both inside and outside (i.e. through creating neighboring buffer spheres of defence). Stalin was consistent in this, from the 1920s until is death.

And Stalin's epigones were also nowhere near the threat we painted them out to be, nor did they have the intentions that the West ascribed them. Everything we know and have learned shows that, if anything, the Soviets were even more paranoid about their enemies' intentions than we ever were. The Soviets were in permanent defensive mode - and their quest for a peaceful accomoation with the "imperialist West" was full of suspicion but genuine.

Your version of events is nowhere near what happened.

Fundamentally Flawed
 

[ QUOTE ]
A war between A and B is considered won by A when country A occupies or dictates terms to country B. Clearly, America lost the war in Vietnam, in military and political terms

[/ QUOTE ]

America is not country A or country B.

One correct way to state it might be: in a conflict, when one country quits, they lose. America quit, so it lost. Before America quit, country A never once occupied country B. Before America quit, it had fundamentally succeeded in every one of its stated objectives, militarily and politically.

[ QUOTE ]
America's objective in Vietnam was ostensibly to contain communism

[/ QUOTE ]

America's objective in Vietnam was to defend its friend and ally, letting other countries throughout the world know that if you mess with so and so, you mess with America. This was repeatedly stated by Johnson and McNamara.

"Our objective is the independence of South Vietnam and its freedom from attack." Lyndon Johnson

Obviously this was all in the context of our 20 odd year geopolitical strategy of containing communism, which we successfully did in the region.

Unlike what TwoWords believes, America's objective was never to conquer Vietnam. Our forces were never even technically allowed to enter Laos or Cambodia to disrupt any supply lines, nor were we allowed to send forces across the 17th parallel.

[ QUOTE ]
This posture resulted in America losing a great deal of the "goodwill capital", to use a Bush phrase, it has accumulated by helping defeat Nazism and imperialist Japan. Instead of a post-colonialist, liberating power, Americans appeared to come on as the supreme neo-colonialists

[/ QUOTE ]

You also continue to prove my point. Only in the eyes of the ultra-left and communist factions in America and throughout the world were we viewed as "neo-colonialists". Unfortunately it was the ultra-left that held power in the major MSM outlets at the time.

I bet you think the Tet Offensive was a surprising blow to our forces, catching us totally off guard and had the mighty Americans scrawling for the hills. I bet you even think those were American troops evacuating from that hotel roof in Saigon 1975 (it wasn't our Embassy, but I don't expect you to know that)

[ QUOTE ]
The American errors of the war in Vietnam became obvious when the North won : There was no bloodshed

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you have simply devolved into flat out lying at this point, about the bloodshed part, but I'll assume you meant that there wasn't a long draw out war for the North to overtake the South following 1975.

Also, please, what were our errors in the war? And how were they obvious when we left? Again, we were never once militarily defeated during our presence there. The government in South Vietnam, while we were there, was relatively stable (for a Southeast Asia government). Other countries in the region (note, this isn't France and Germany) dealing with communist revolutions were more than delighted at our intervention.

Re: America won the vietnam war
 

"What exactly do you mean by this? That they fought harder?"

I meant what I said. The Viet Minh had fought against the Japanese and then the French. Bao Dai was a French puppet and then the "government" of "South Vietnam" was an American creation. Eisenhower knew what he was talking about when he said that if there had been an election in Vietnam in the 1950s, nobody doubted that Ho Chi Minh would be a landslide winner.

"We were supposed to explain why the communists were bad and why the people must follow the [South Vietnamese] government. But during the Resistance the communists had been the only ones in the village to fight against the French, so when we tried to explain that communists were evil people, the villagers just didn't listen to us." -an official of the Civic Action program in Tan Tru district of Lon An

"After Diem came to power, anybody who had had a relative with the Vietminh was arrested and beaten up. . . . They poured water in my nose, and then later hooked up a generator to my fingers and toes and cranked so hard I collapsed and wanted to die. . . . I told them, 'Stop, stop, I confess, I haven't done anything but I confess anyway'." -village official from Long Huu Island in Can Duoc district

"Before Diem's overthrow in 1963, a great many people here went over to the Vietcong because the government was appointed, not elected. In those days the government lorded it over the people. No matter if you put in a request for something, you would get no help. Even worse, the officials found a lot of ways to make money off the people, so the people hated the government. So a lot of people wentover to the Vietcong, even though they didn't like them, because they had no choice. If they had stayed, they would have been arrested."-village chief from Thu Thua

"The Vietcong were very smart. If they knew that Binh's family had been ill-treated by the government, they would work on that weak point. Perhaps Binh had had money extorted by an official--in his heart he had to feel resentment. So they would come by from time to time and sya, 'You cee how bad the government is, it calls itself nationalist, but in the end its steals your money. Are you just going to do nothing?' So like fanning a flame, Binh's resentment would grow to anger, and his anger to hatred, and his hatred to revolt.

"Or maybe Xoai would be building a hosue. The Vietcong would come by and help him put it up, meanwhile talking about their life--no pay, living in the swamps, being shot at all the time. Naturally, Zoai would take pity on them, so the next time they came by and asked for a meal, he would invite them in. But when they took a meal it was not like our soldiers' way: burst in, demand food, sit around while it was being fixed, eat, and finally grab a couple of chikens and run off. Instead, the VC would go into the kitchen, clean the rice, and while they were waiting for it to cook, they would sweep the house, wash the dishes, and set the table. When the meal was over, they would clean up and then thank everyone politiely. So the owner of the house would think 'The soldiers come in here as if they owned the place, but this other fellow is very polite and helps me out.' Naturally, he let the Vietcong eat at his house all the time. That is how the Vietcong gained the people's support. They simply built on the opportunity we gave them." -hamlet chief

Yes, they fought harder and smarter.

"I sincerely hope you don't think our boys were 'baby killers and rapists'."

No, I think our leaders were baby killers.