Reality check on some all-ins...

Sam T. · #1 07-01-2004, 01:14 PM

Hi all,

Went on quite a run last couple of days, and wanted to run some of my all-ins past you...

Hand One:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB (t1055)
Hero (t1150)
UTG (t1565)
MP1 (t1170)
MP2 (t1265)
CO (t675)
Button (t1120)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t50, 4 folds, SB completes, Hero checks,

Flop: (t150) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets t100, Hero raises to t300, UTG folds, SB calls t200.

Turn: (t750) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t800 (All-In), SB calls t705 (All-In).

River: (t2255) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t2255
Main Pot: t2160 (t2160), between SB and Hero.

 This raises a more general question of how to play JJ from the big blind. I was reluctant to raise simply because I'm more likely to get calls from limpers, and any overcards are trouble. Is this a mistake? 

Hand Two:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t1135)
UTG+1 (t970)
Hero (t680)
MP2 (t725)
CO (t835)
Button (t1200)
SB (t1045)
BB (t1410)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, Hero raises to t90, 4 folds, BB calls t60, UTG calls t60, UTG+1 calls t60.

Flop: (t375) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets t30, UTG+1 calls t30, Hero raises to t590 (All-In), BB folds, UTG calls t560, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (t1585) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1585) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1585
Main Pot: t1585 (t1585), between UTG and Hero.

The min bet made me think he had a weak king or was on a str8 or flush draw, so it seemed like a good idea to shut things down sooner rather than later. 

Hand Three:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t825)
UTG (t755)
Hero (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t475)
MP2 (t1705)
MP3 (t735)
CO (t865)
Button (t655)
SB (t385)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to t65, 1 fold, MP1 calls t65, 6 folds,

Flop: (t155) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t75, MP1 calls t75.

Top pair, good kicker, bet half the pot. Anything wrong with this? 

Turn: (t305) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t660 (All-In), MP1 calls t335 (All-In).

 Okay, possible flush draw, and the straight is possible. Again, I want to end the hand now. 

River: (t1300) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t1300
Main Pot: t975 (t975), between Hero and MP1.

Hand Four:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+2 (t380)
MP1 (t645)
Hero (t580)
MP3 (t980)
CO (t1345)
Button (t955)
SB (t845)
BB (t825)
UTG (t825)
UTG+1 (t620)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, 2 folds, Hero calls t30, MP3 calls t30, 1 fold, Button calls t30, 1 fold, BB checks,

Flop: (t195) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t195) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets t30, UTG+1 calls t30, Hero raises to t100, MP3 folds, Button folds, BB folds, UTG raises to t170, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to t550 (All-In), UTG calls t380.

I read him for a weak Queen, perhaps Q6. 

River: (t1325) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1325
Main Pot: t1325 (t1325), between Hero and UTG.

Jason Strasser · #2 07-01-2004, 01:25 PM

Sam T.,

Wow. Your play has really improved dramatically. From some of the posts 2-3 weeks ago, to now, you are right on the ball IMO. I got goosebumps (maybe I spend too much time here) following each one of your plays with almost identical thought processes.

The one variation is the JJ hand. There is definitely a school of thought that says "I dont like raising JJ and then playing it out of position." I personally don't mind it at all. If you get an ugly flop, it is easy to either check/fold, or bet/fold to a raise. Generally it is not hard to tell whether the flop was a good one or a bad one. But from your flop check, you bet it perfectly.

I LOVE your flop all in with AK, I think it is a great move. I LOVE the bet size with AQ all around, on the flop and on the turn. Perfect. And I think you played 66 absolutely perfectly.

Nice job, it is very obvious to me that you are making a lot of progress.

BigJohn043 · #3 07-01-2004, 02:07 PM

Some questions / thoughts for Sam & Jason:

Hand 1: I would probably raise it pre-flop, but I don't know if this is right...

Hand 2: Exactly right

Hand 3: Why are you only betting half the pot? Jason would have as well, but I don't know why. Are you afraid of AK or a set? Aren't you pricing in a straight draw? I guess I just always default to betting the pot, but maybe this isn't right.

Hand 4: I think I would have raised more than 100. When we puts in a weak reraise I push as well. You probably milked more out of him, but I don't know which play is right.

Jason Strasser · #4 07-01-2004, 02:32 PM

I think the 1/2 pot bet on the AQ hand is good because it accomplishes the same exact thing as a full pot bet. This is not what I'd consider a draw filled board. Yes, there is a straight draw, but I think the chances that the opponent in question has a draw is unlikely. The odds are he has a far weaker ace, or even a worse hand then that. On the turn, there are much more likely legitimate draws, and the push is good. A lot of hands that could've tagged along preflop: KQ, 99, 22, QT, etc, hate this flop, and will fold to both a 1/2 pot and a pot bet. I like it.

Hand three is debatable. It seems so likely that his opponent is drawing dead in this hand or close. I think a slightly bigger raise would've been better, but you can't argue with a raise to 100. I suppose 125 or 150 is better, but this is fine.

Good points though, and I do think there are many ways to play these hands, I just like the line sam took.

ddubois · #5 07-01-2004, 03:21 PM

I noticed you didn't post results, presumably so as to not taint your responses. Along this line of thought, I would not post the reactions to your all-in bets either. The fact that your opponents called is information you do not have at the time of the bet, and can similarly taint your responses.

dethgrind · #6 07-01-2004, 03:27 PM

I'd consider putting in a bigger preflop raise in hand 2, with the AKo. There were two limpers already, so the standard 3XBB raise might be offering too good a price to the blinds and the limpers for a hand that is pretty universally accepted to become less valuable with each additional opponent in the pot. I understand your stack wasn't in great shape at this point, so perhaps that was affecting your decision. Very well-played hands though.

TheDrone · #7 07-01-2004, 03:35 PM

Overall nice play, but I wanted to get your thought process on the preflop raise with AK. Did you want the limpers to come along? I would expect them to call your raise.

Without knowing anything about them other than stack size, in this situation I like a bigger raise - 120 to 150. My reasoning is twofold:
(1) If they are going to see the flop, I want them to pay more for it.
(2) I would prefer to be heads up on the flop rather than up against 4 opponents in the event that I have just overcards.

Sam T. · #8 07-01-2004, 03:38 PM

The good news is that nobody was horrified by my play. (Thanks Jason!). The bad news is that I lost all of these hands in the space of 90 minutes. I was ready to slam my head in the door. Happily I stayed with my game and went 1st, 2nd, 1st in my next three.

Hand 1: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] was beaten by 95o (two pair).

Hand 2: AKo (TPTK) lost to KTo (two pair).

Hand 3: AQs (TPGK) lost to T8o (straight).

Hand 4: The guy flipped slow/mis-played pocket queens for a higher set. See this thread for a similar play. Must have been something in the water.

Jason Strasser · #9 07-01-2004, 03:39 PM

Gah! I really hate when people play AK like this. How much does it stink to raise to 150, get one caller, see a flop of JT8, bet out, and get raised?

I really think that AK is a dangerous hand if overplayed, and a nice raise like sam made is perfect. Why do you wan't to make it 150 to go? How do you play it if you miss? I don't think a raise to 60 with 15/30 blinds is small, it is standard. It is so easy to raise to 90, watch the flop come JTT, and check fold to any action. People tie themselves to a pot way to often with AK IMO.

TheDrone · #10 07-01-2004, 04:55 PM

Getting tied to TPTK on the flop when there are three others in the hand can be dangerous too. Case in point was Sam T.'s posted results. I don't think he was wrong to go all-in, but my theory is that hands like KTo and mini pairs would be much less likely to stay in with a bigger preflop raise.

I realize that I'm being results oriented here. However, AKo does not play well in multiway pots, so the bigger raise with limpers is simply to isolate or otherwise pick up the pot right there.

If you can poke holes in my logic I certainly welcome it - after all we are on this forum to learn, right?