After the bubble in MTT

[sprmario]

Ok, I've done ok in my first bunch of MTT. Entered about 10 or 12 and gotten money in 4 of them, w/ one 18th place.

I had a big stack in one of those tournaments near the bubble and was able to steal a lot of blinds. Once we were in the money though, it seemed impossible to steal the blinds. It seemed like every hand had one or two people all in. I've noticed this in all 4 of the tournaments that I was in.

I've seen a lot of talk about bubble play and how things tighten up at that point but not a lot about what happens between the initial bubble and the final table bubble.

So in a typical 800 person MTT where the top 80 money and the significant jump ups happen at the top 10. My limited experience shows:

80 to 100 players left: Very tight. Lots of chances to steal blinds if you are the big stack. People hoping to sneak into the money.
20 to 80 players left: Very lose. All the small to med stacks that didn't play much the last 20 positions are willing to gamble it up to double up to make a move.
11 to 20 players left: Progressively tighter as you get closer to the top 10. Opportunities arise again for blind stealing.

Is this a fair assessment of a typical big MTT? My experience is pretty limited. I just noticed that in all 4 ITM times for me that the 40 to 80 area (in this example) had people dropping like flies.

[daveymck]

I suspect that after the bubble period that all the short stacks come alive particulary as the blinds will be high compared to their stack and in essence they have to loosen up to survive.

I am not experienced much but I suspect as big stack in that situation you have to look tighten up a touch and play big cards again and getting all in with high aces etc against those getting all in with any ace and small pocket pairs. And if playing a lot of hands limp rather than raise and put the pressure on when thinking the flop has missed them. Rather than pure blind stealing.

Not a tournie expert but my thoughts for what they are worth.

[eMarkM]

Yeah, that's a pretty accurate assessment. Really, I think it gets too tight prior to the money (at least at Stars), and even if you have a relatively short stack there are stealing opportunities. But when you have the boss stack at the table, you basically have a license to open raise whenever it's folded to you. The guy in the BB with the small stack, but who has 2-3 others he sees with smaller stacks he's hoping to outlast will be too petrified to call with his Axo even though he's getting great odds on his call and will be well ahead of the typical trash you're stealing with. People seem to make the mistake of being too tight in these situations, something I've been guilty of myself. The best players are the ones who are truly fearless on the bubble and aren't afraid of being bubble boy. Those are the guys who will play back at your stealing with almost anything hoping you're too fearful to call and put you in a position of being bubble boy yourself.

After the initial $ stage, there is a tremendous sigh of relief, even though in most cases you've made maybe $25 profit in a typical $50 tourney. You have to really clamp down on the stealing with utter garbage now as for sure you'll get played back at. As you elude to, the secondary increases in $ prior to the final table don't seem to have the same sense of urgency even though in many cases the next increase in cash is close to or better than the initial $ and you should really play the same for that next tier as you did for the initial cash. Something psychological about getting that initial cash for, say, fourth table, that somehow doesn't apply to what you get for third or second. At least in my experience. But then the uber-tightness does return when the final table is on the line.

[GoSox]

I agree with a lot of what's been said here. I've found in the six or so I've made the money once you're in it's best to sit tight for a while. In a couple I've limped with a short stack and then gone from 100th to 20th in twenty minutes of people just playing way too aggressive. Suddenly that $20mtt that pays $30 for 100th place is paying you $300.

[ZootMurph]

From what I've seen, it starts to tighten up again when about halfway through the money positions. In the stated example, where 80 pay, around when 40 are left the play starts getting tighter, and the final two tables or so the play gets absolutely 'tough'.

The reasons I think this happens are:

1) People who made it past the bubble are just happy to be in the money, and are real loose now. Since these are generally smaller stacks, they will usually be out soon and that's when it tightens up.
2) People are trying to build up a big stack to make the bigger money, and now that they have a profit they are pushing small edges as much as possible to do it.

Around halfway through the money, these two groups are basically gone or have made a significant stack and are now waiting for opportunities. Smaller stacks are now playing the bubble game trying to get up one more level, while many medium stacks are 'lying in wait', which is why it tightens up again.

At the final tables, the blinds have become significant. So blind stealing is a larger part of the game, and the game becomes a typical tough TAG game. Some bubble type play still exists, but not much and usually just the shortest stack or two.

At least this is the way I see the games go in the Party mid level games that I play (20+2, 30+3, and 50+5). This post reminds me that I want to email Party and BEG them to institute antes into the game, preferably no later than Level 9... I'd prefer to see antes start at Level 7.