QTs with QKK board against a LAG

Soggy Salmon · #1 06-28-2004, 09:10 PM

What do you think of this? I played it a bit differently than I normally would.

UTG seems pretty passive, BB likes to cap preflop with cards he thinks are pretty and will bet/raise with any piece of the board.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB (LAGarooni) raises, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Flop: (11 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
LAGarooni bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (7.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
LAGarooni bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

River: (10.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
LAGarooni bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, LAGarooni calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB
Main Pot: 15.50 BB, between LAGarooni and Hero.

blackaces13 · #2 06-28-2004, 09:20 PM

It looks strange at first but the more I think about it the more it makes sense. The river raise is interesting and you'd hate to be 3-bet by a maniac who has you beat so I think calling it down in this particular instance isn't a bad way to go either.

Its an interesting hand, raising the flop, calling it down, and working in a raise on the expensive streets all seem reasonable. I hope some others respond to this one.

RED_RAIN · #3 06-28-2004, 11:27 PM

QTs UTG+1 needs good post flop play. You are calling down middle pair so you really don't think BB or UTG have a K even with a weak kicker. Given the action not UTG but maybe BB and he didn't 3 bet on river since he has no kicker. I don't like your river raise as you don't even have QJ which will often be shown to you if not AQ.

Soggy Salmon · #4 06-29-2004, 12:14 AM

Did you read my description of BB? I was pretty damn sure I was ahead of him the whole way. My only question was where to raise to get the most from him and UTG also.

RED_RAIN · #5 06-29-2004, 12:31 AM

Yes I did. I found your description of the BB to mean pretty much nothing. What the heck are pretty cards? What makes you think you are beating UTG? If you are so confident, do it on the turn, as almost always.

Soggy Salmon · #6 06-29-2004, 01:17 AM

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I found your description of the BB to mean pretty much nothing. What the heck are pretty cards?

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I don't think you are that dense, so you must be being contrary.

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What makes you think you are beating UTG? If you are so confident, do it on the turn, as almost always.

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I was sure I was ahead of UTG on the turn. He had two chances to show me otherwise. Even though he was passive, he would have raised with a K. He could have Qx but I already have one and I am pretty sure BB has another. Not likely all four Q are in play.

Why raise the turn?

See, that's the problem with this forum. A lot of snappy advice, mostly parroted from what better posters have said before, not enough thinking about or explaining why one should make certain plays.

I'm not saying it is wrong to raise the turn. If I was 100% sure I played this hand to perfection, I wouldn't be posting it.

cartoonsoldier · #7 06-29-2004, 01:29 AM

He might have hit his straight with TJ?

Sent · #8 06-29-2004, 01:31 AM

Hmm interesting hand

-Sent

RED_RAIN · #9 06-29-2004, 02:03 AM

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I don't think you are that dense, so you must be being contrary.

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Ummm, I was joking. I don't get what your idea of the meaning pretty cards. Does this mean Ax, Kx, Qx, does it mean any 2 random, does it mean any 2 face? Sorry I can't read your mind.

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I was sure I was ahead of UTG on the turn. He had two chances to show me otherwise. Even though he was passive, he would have raised with a K. He could have Qx but I already have one and I am pretty sure BB has another. Not likely all four Q are in play.

Why raise the turn?

See, that's the problem with this forum. A lot of snappy advice, mostly parroted from what better posters have said before, not enough thinking about or explaining why one should make certain plays.

I'm not saying it is wrong to raise the turn. If I was 100% sure I played this hand to perfection, I wouldn't be posting it.

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I would not be surpised if UTG if passive had like K and a low kicker and was afriad of losing to a better kicker. The reason I'd raise on the turn, if I felt like I was in front, I would rather get money in on the turn, this would also help show me if they 3 bet me to put them on a hand, and if not, to make more money if they call a bet on the river where I have them beat. That's the reason.

Strange how you get all pissed off about replies to your post when you are the one asking for help. If you want it explained to you more indepth say it, don't be rude, or perhaps later on you won't get help. If you know some reasons are wrong, state them, so we know what you are thinking.

Soggy Salmon · #10 06-29-2004, 03:12 AM

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I don't get what your idea of the meaning pretty cards. Does this mean Ax, Kx, Qx, does it mean any 2 random, does it mean any 2 face? Sorry I can't read your mind.

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In the original post, I said BB likes to cap with what he thinks are pretty cards. This was just a slightly less boring way of saying he caps with any two cards that please him, with no reasoning behind it. I thought that could easily be inferred.

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The reason I'd raise on the turn, if I felt like I was in front, I would rather get money in on the turn, this would also help show me if they 3 bet me to put them on a hand, and if not, to make more money if they call a bet on the river where I have them beat

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Thank you for the explanation.

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I would not be surpised if UTG if passive had like K and a low kicker and was afriad of losing to a better kicker.

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Have you seen may Party low-limit players, even passive ones, not raise their trips, not matter what kicker? I can only remember once.

I am not pissed. It just seemed your second reply was argumentative. I apologize if it wasn't meant to be.

I am frustrated many times by the responses to questions on this board. So many answers are just a quick "bet the river" with no reasoning behind them.

A simple answer of "raise the turn" does not help much here. So the next time I am this same situation with these same type of players I will remember "raise the turn"? You see the problem? This isn't a game where trying to memorize 44,000 different plays will work. Principles are needed.

I just don't understand why somebody wouldn't post at least a short sentence saying why they would take a certain action. Unless they are trying to make the poster figure it out for himself why (and, really, only the really respected posters on this board can get away with that) or they don't really know, but they've seen it posted here before, so they repeat it (I fear this happens a lot). Or they just want to look smart. Because I just don't see how one can think a simple "raise the turn" can be considered helpful. I would think at least a little explanation would be standard.

Don't get me wrong. I love this forum. It is invaluable. I just don't like this aspect of it.