Another supposed bad beat from a "supposedly good" player

Chazbot2000 · #1 06-25-2004, 07:58 PM

Phil Hellmuth's column yet again leaves me wondering if pros are really that good. In Card Player, Phil describes some of the bad beats that hurt his fellow pros. My favorite:

"Antonio "the magician" Esfandiari went out early on day one. He said, "On the fourth hand of the tournament, with the blinds at $25-$50, I picked up J-J and made it $150 to go. The small blind called, and the flop came down A-J-4 with two spades, and I bet out $450. He called, the turn was the 9u, and I bet $1,200. He called, and at this point in time, I put him on an ace. The river made a spade flush possible, he checked, I went with my read and bet $2,800, and then he moved all in and I was forced to fold. He didn't show the hand, but I didn't need to see it. Later, he told me he had a flush! The hand I went out with is irrelevant, because I was already a short stack." It was a great laydown with the three jacks, but it sucks to lose so much so early in the "Big One."

O.K., 3 points:

1) This is not a bad beat, this is greed. Even on the flop you should be figuring out how to push out opponents before they cheaply draw to a flush.

2) This is NOT a great read/laydown. Everything Antonio's opponent did screamed "I'm on a draw." Besides which, if Antonio had such a great read, why did he push another $2,800 into the pot on the river if he's going to fold when he gets reraised?

3) I hope someone did "the wave" when Antonio got taken out.

Army Eye · #2 06-25-2004, 09:04 PM

1) this was a cheap draw? seems to me like Antonio was potting it on every street.

2) Decent laydown, and not a good read. You're right that it screamed out flush draw. It was stubborn of him to so steadfastly stick to his read that they had an ace when it was played EXACTLY like a draw. You have to at least consider it! Bad read, but I don't think he claimed it to be a great read either. Just that the laydown was great.

3) 100% agree with this one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

West · #3 06-26-2004, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3) I hope someone did "the wave" when Antonio got taken out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone explain this one for me? Does Antonio showboat or something when he wins big hands?

MicroBob · #4 06-26-2004, 02:17 PM

antonio was doing a rather show-boatish and immature wave when he won big hands on the WPT a few weeks back.

balt999 · #5 06-26-2004, 03:48 PM

I think it's a marketing play for his "gimmick"...he's a magician, so I guess he wants to be known in the poker circles as the "Poker Magician"...I don't know...everyone wants to be the "star" of the WPT.

sdplayerb · #6 06-27-2004, 03:11 AM

Yep, if I am one of the best players, I am checking on the river so I don't get RR if he has a flush.
Heck, i'm not one of the best players, and I still check it as the only hand the guy can call with that doesn't have me beat is AJ, but I think we'd be allin by now anyway.

tewall · #7 06-28-2004, 12:51 AM

The river bet was indeed strange. He must have thought not only that his opponent had an Ace, but that he would call the large bet with the Ace. But even putting the guy on an Ace, checking would be better, to give him a chance to bluff (which he'd have the perfect opportunity to do with the flush showing). He would still have lost, but maybe less than the $2800 he bet, and, more importantly, he certainly stood to win more if he had been correct about his read.

Rushmore · #8 06-28-2004, 01:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But even putting the guy on an Ace, checking would be better, to give him a chance to bluff (which he'd have the perfect opportunity to do with the flush showing).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for the record, he got check-raised on the river.

There is a good argument for checking this river or at least making a smaller bet. The obvious problem is that if the bet is too small, the opponent might sense weakness and then try to push him off of his two pair.

There aren't many hands the guy will call this big bet with.

tewall · #9 06-28-2004, 01:19 AM

OK. That was a good check by the other guy then. He obviously had the magician completely fooled.

I agree with what you said. A small bet would have been good. It might have looked like weakness, but it also looks like someone who's baiting for a raise. If you don't have the flush yourself, it's mighty hard to raise in this situation, so he'd probably call the small bet. With and Ace and the large bet he'd have to fold because what hand could he possibly put the magician on that he could beat?

whiskeytown · #10 06-28-2004, 02:20 PM

I must be an amateur...

If I was in Phil Hellmuth's spot on the river...I'd take that check the magician gave and see what he had....

and no, I don't think he had a flush...those bastards lie all the time...

screw the good laydown...I've gotta put the guy on a good hand, and a flush draw is possible...so dang...why not check and see if you've got the best hand instead of giving yourself a chance to get bluffed off it.

RB