How badly did I play this?

oscark · #1 06-21-2004, 11:42 PM

UTG+1 is completely insane. He could have raised with anything, and I know my 3 betting guarantees a cap.

He slows down postflop if he doesn't hit much, but calls all the way down with bottom pair.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 5 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17.33 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (8.66 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (8.66 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB
Main Pot: 10.66 BB, between UTG+1 and UTG+2. > Pot won by UTG+1 (10.66 BB).

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 shows 8c 6c (one pair, eights).
UTG+2 shows 9d 7c (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 10.66 BB.

JohnShaft · #2 06-21-2004, 11:46 PM

I'd bet the flop. I want a free card. And I'd like to fold weak hands (weak flopped pairs, weak pockets).
It looks a good enough flop for you to bet as the PFR without getting pushed around too easy. If you don't bet you're not folding anyone, and you then have to hit to win, as I don't think you're winning this unimproved if no-one folds. You'll also get someone betting into you on the Turn with little here frequently, and again you have a lot of outs which makes folding bad, really.
Bet the flop, pretty much every time.

jacki · #3 06-21-2004, 11:48 PM

You MUST bet the flop.

You've got 10 outs, and you might even have the best hand.

nepenthe · #4 06-22-2004, 02:00 AM

If you have UTG+1 pegged as insane, and when you've got the button AND the flop is checked to you, just bet and call any raises. Failing that, bet the turn when it's checked to you. Failing that, call the river.

JohnShaft · #5 06-22-2004, 02:04 AM

Actually I don't agree Nep.

I think once the flop is checked (with this many opponents) the hand is butchered. Betting the Turn won't work imo, you'll just get called by anything that beats you (at this point literally almost anything) and you have 10 outs to a good hand anyway, takem.

I also don't agree with calling the River, as there was a bet and a call. Even with just a bet to me unless I just about close the action I don't even think of calling. Everyone and his uncle can have some raggedy ass pair here.

Not Betting the Flop butchered the hand, after that it was all over. That's why it was so important to bet the flop.

adanthar · #6 06-22-2004, 11:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Not Betting the Flop butchered the hand, after that it was all over. That's why it was so important to bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
If UTG+1 will never fold a pair but will call the flop and fold the turn when he misses entirely, betting the flop isn't that great- it's still bad not to, but not really the butchery people are saying. Either he hit his 2:1 shot, paired and you're betting on a 10 out draw, or you are value betting into him when he has 6 outs. Not betting into him, if he was the only person in this hand, would cost you about 1/3 of a SB on the flop.

You also have to consider the other two people, though, and on that flop, *one* of the three of them had to pair up. Will either of the others fold a middle or bottom pair to a bet? Probably not, since this is Party. Of course, betting narrows the field, increases your outs, and lets you take a free turn card, but if I knew ahead of time that no one would bet the turn, either, it's debateable.

Having said that, I'd bet. I just don't think it's a 'butchery'.

JohnShaft · #7 06-22-2004, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Having said that, I'd bet. I just don't think it's a 'butchery'.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's butchery considering most lineups will bet at you on the Turn here close to 100% with anything. And heck, because it's such a big pot and you didn't bother to bet, it might even get raised to you.
This is a hand you want to see a showdown in, it's that simple. And by far the best way of doing that is betting the flop.

We can argue over the definition of butchery but I think it is a *clear* mistake, especially if the Turn is regularly going to get bet.

I'm not so bothered about people folding one pair, that's not even the main reason I'm betting (because that is not what I expect them to do).

If we didn't have such prime position I might agree with you that it's a "should bet but not betting isn't that bad", but in this instance I think the only thing that should remotely stop you betting is a strong likelyhood of being checkraised.

lil' · #8 06-22-2004, 12:02 PM

Betting a gutshot with two overcards on the flop is actually a good play, although many people would never do it.

adanthar · #9 06-22-2004, 01:55 PM

Yeah, I agree it's much worse if you're certain that you'll have to pay a BB on the turn if you don't put in the SB now. But that's opponent dependant, and so far it looks like the opponents are a maniac and 2 horrible calling stations. The turn might get checked through, or you might get CR'd on the flop by a guy with J high.

I'm partially playing devil's advocate, though. You're right; betting here is obviously +EV. But I think if you change the flop to, say, JT9r or even QJx (2 spades) it might be better to check. (Then again, I bet all of them. Oh well.)