the "min" raise - please teach the newbie

[stripsqueez]

my last thread in this forum i was told that a "min" raise was an outrage - i assume we are talking a minimum raise ie twice the BB

apparently its not clever - it stinks - its playing soft - you deserve to get beat when you do it - and its beyond belief that someone playing $200+$15 SNG's does it

why ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[RoyalSampler]

I'd like to see the rest of the comments here, but I do actually see a purpose for it. It can be useful deception, for your opponents are likely to underestimate you, without a better read.

I.e. I have after joining a table... raised big preflop then min raised to try and act like a newbie who has missed the flop, but knows to keep momentum. When in actual fact I had a monster.

[La Brujita]

I am guessing you are writing half jokingly but I guess part of the problem is you have to make sure you are not pricing someone in when you miniraise. As a result of the previous discussion I posted two of my hands I miniraised on the multitable forum (but nobody cared enough to respond) [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

Here is the link



Mini Raise Hands

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
I am guessing you are writing half jokingly

[/ QUOTE ]

nope

[ QUOTE ]
but I guess part of the problem is you have to make sure you are not pricing someone in when you miniraise

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand that - its not a limit game though where you have to get value on every betting round - i view raising the minimum pre-flop as getting a bit of extra money in when you likely have the best hand but also attracting customers for your premium hand balanced by getting out cheap if you dont like the flop - when i minimum raise pre-flop depending on my position and number of runners i may have KJs or i may have AA

i read your post - i think you played those hands ok

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Nemesis]

I know you're a better NL/SNG player than me... most everyone is. I would say the big problem with the min raise when you have a premium hand is you invite anybody with a suited connector/low pp to try to bust you when they hit the flop harder than you do... where a 3-4 BB raise would make them fold. You just have to balance the risk v. reward like everything else. It's quite similar to limping in with AA and waiting to bust a habitual bluffer... he may actually have hit something this time.

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am guessing you are writing half jokingly

[/ QUOTE ]

nope

[ QUOTE ]
but I guess part of the problem is you have to make sure you are not pricing someone in when you miniraise

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand that - its not a limit game though where you have to get value on every betting round - i view raising the minimum pre-flop as getting a bit of extra money in when you likely have the best hand but also attracting customers for your premium hand balanced by getting out cheap if you dont like the flop - when i minimum raise pre-flop depending on my position and number of runners i may have KJs or i may have AA

i read your post - i think you played those hands ok

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted something regarding bet sizes a few days ago. I questioned reasons behind the 3x BB raise, and what was wrong with teh min raise. It was a good discussion, look back a few days and you should find it.

I think what it comes down to is the difference of SNGs to ring games, and you have to difrentiate between chip EV and $EV. In a ring game, you want to maximise the pot. That means with your AK, you want as many callers, so you bet what you think will get the biggest pot. However in an SNG, you have to consider when you lose your chips, it's the end of the tounrey, and you get nothing.

For that reason, you may want to take on a gamble that wins you less money, but you win more frequently. This is because of your finite 'bankroll' of chips in the tourney.

So with hands like AK, AQ, KK, QQ, what I'm aiming for is either to a) take down the pot now or b) Get one or two callers, and then take down the pot if I hit on the flop.

In early betting rounds in an SNG, I rarely make a big pot, and I rarely go out in the first 4 spots. I'm usually one of the shorter stacks when we hit level 3/4 with 6 players left, which is when I try and build up my stack. So when I get a premium hand, I'm happy to pick up a couple of hundred chips rather than maximising my return by min-raising and getting 8 limpers and losing all my chips with AK to T8 with AT8 flop.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
my last thread in this forum i was told that a "min" raise was an outrage - i assume we are talking a minimum raise ie twice the BB

apparently its not clever - it stinks - its playing soft - you deserve to get beat when you do it - and its beyond belief that someone playing $200+$15 SNG's does it


[/ QUOTE ]

lol - i said all of that !!??

[donkeyradish]

I will do this as well (in a tournament). I'm trying to represent some kind of vulnerable hand or a draw and I'm always hoping to try and induce someone else to go all-in.

This works often enough, that I'm going to keep on doing it!

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If 1) your opponents tend to be on the tight side, 2) you can outplay them postflop and 3) it's your standard raise, then it's not a total abomination. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
I will do this as well (in a tournament). I'm trying to represent some kind of vulnerable hand or a draw and I'm always hoping to try and induce someone else to go all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man please all it represents is that you have a monster, AA KK preflop, or after flop top 2 pair or a set.

[ QUOTE ]
If 1) your opponents tend to be on the tight side, 2) you can outplay them postflop and 3) it's your standard raise, then it's not a total abomination. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe but it has become pretty obvious to me that I should tread carefully any time I see a min raise, to me they stink of a monster.

Regards ML