So just what are the cons of Lee Jones' book?

[BDP]

Being new to the game, I decided to get a book to help me improve. The book I chose was WLLHE based on the good reviews I read on the web. I enjoyed the book and feel that is definitely improved my game and I still frequently review the text. However, many people on this site say that is has it's flaws, which I'm not disagreeing with at all, but since I'm still fairly new and have only read one book, I cannot find them myself. So I'm asking what are the flaws to the book? And as a side question, when do you recommend I start reading a more advanced book, say, HEFAP? I thought I might wait until I'm doing routinely well at low limit games. Should I read it sooner?

Thanks!

[sin808]

Check out some of the threads listed here, the one regarding charging flush draws specifically. I think that should help point out some of what you're looking for.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...fpart=1#560368

[Slacker13]

Reviews and flaws asside IMO WLLHE is a must read for beginners. Just make yourself aware of the flaws and make adjustments when you read it, then once you feel comfortable and have memorized starting hands and basic principles then you should move to HEFAP which is a book that no poker play should go without.

[ScottTheFish]

If you don't feel like reading all the old threads, the general feeling I got form Ed Miller and other respected posters about the book was this:

The book is generally good. The advice is a litle on the loose side preflop, and a little on the weak side postflop. But I think most agree if you follow its advice you will win money in low limit games.

However to move to the next level of beating the bigger games and/or winning MORE in low limit, you need to study the 2+2 books and this forum, IMO.

I started with the Lee Jones book and I would highly recommend it as a first book.

[Ed Miller]

If you don't feel like reading all the old threads, the general feeling I got form Ed Miller and other respected posters about the book was this:

The book is generally good. The advice is a litle on the loose side preflop, and a little on the weak side postflop. But I think most agree if you follow its advice you will win money in low limit games.

No. The preflop advice is pretty much ok. It's not outstanding, but it's good enough. The postflop advice is WAY too weak/passive.

Having said that, it is a book aimed at beginners, and any beginner who reads it should improve his game significantly. So the book does what it is supposed to do (and therefore, by my definition, it is at least a fairly good book).

My main problem is that people start to think in the defensive, monsters under the bed mindset that that book engenders... and they continue to think that way for years and years. If you want to be very successful at low-limits, or if you want to avoid getting slaughtered at mid-limits, you cannot think about the game the way WLLH suggests you do.

So WLLH does a good job of making decent players out of beginners. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it then STUNTS the growth of decent players into experts.

This is my official critique of WLLH. If you want to quote it, feel free to do so.

[muck_nutz]

[ QUOTE ]

My main problem is that people start to think in the defensive, monsters under the bed mindset that that book engenders... and they continue to think that way for years and years. If you want to be very successful at low-limits, or if you want to avoid getting slaughtered at mid-limits, you cannot think about the game the way WLLH suggests you do.

So WLLH does a good job of making decent players out of beginners. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it then STUNTS the growth of decent players into experts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having played some hands with Lee and having Lee stand over my sholder a few times I'm fairly sure this isn't how Lee thinks about the game. I personally didn't get this out of his book. I wonder if the results you see are more an expression of most readers passiveness then of what the book actually says? It'll be interesting to see if you can get across an effective strategy for lower limit games while not stunting further growth.

[BDP]

[ QUOTE ]






My main problem is that people start to think in the defensive, monsters under the bed mindset that that book engenders... and they continue to think that way for years and years. If you want to be very successful at low-limits, or if you want to avoid getting slaughtered at mid-limits, you cannot think about the game the way WLLH suggests you do.



[/ QUOTE ]

Ed,

Could you please explain what you mean by that? Thanks!


I do have one complaint about the book: I think the section on Pot odds is too short and the whole concept needs more explanation. Fortunately, TOP has a entire chapter devoted to it and reading it pretty much cleared up any questions I had.

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]
[No. The preflop advice is pretty much ok. It's not outstanding, but it's good enough. The postflop advice is WAY too weak/passive.



[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I guess I lumped your opinions in with some others. Actually if someone Reads Jones and your famous "Why you guys arent crushing..." thread and the replies, they are well on the way. Now get back to work on that book! I raised QTo UTG and won a big pot so i could pay for it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't feel like reading all the old threads, the general feeling I got form Ed Miller and other respected posters about the book was this:

The book is generally good. The advice is a litle on the loose side preflop, and a little on the weak side postflop. But I think most agree if you follow its advice you will win money in low limit games.

No. The preflop advice is pretty much ok. It's not outstanding, but it's good enough. The postflop advice is WAY too weak/passive.

Having said that, it is a book aimed at beginners, and any beginner who reads it should improve his game significantly. So the book does what it is supposed to do (and therefore, by my definition, it is at least a fairly good book).

My main problem is that people start to think in the defensive, monsters under the bed mindset that that book engenders... and they continue to think that way for years and years. If you want to be very successful at low-limits, or if you want to avoid getting slaughtered at mid-limits, you cannot think about the game the way WLLH suggests you do.

So WLLH does a good job of making decent players out of beginners. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it then STUNTS the growth of decent players into experts.

This is my official critique of WLLH. If you want to quote it, feel free to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed, this is an excellent post. I agree with this 100%. I wish Lee would post b/c I am pretty sure the audience for this book is not good players wanting to become experts. It is for beginners who need to be introduced to the game with a base knowledge and for novices looking to get some elementary education.

While I would agree that the book COULD stunt the growth of decent players into expert players, I don't think that's the point of his book. His book is to try to teach beginners and novices some basic conepts to help them achieve decent player status and I would be willing to bet that he would encourage players to further their education with other books including TOP and HPFAP and that is the next step in the process for a player's ladder to go from decent to expert. Of course, playing hands and poker in general during this process is a must, I'm just solely talking about the literary education.

Until I read your book and I'm very confident it could either replace or stand side by side with Jones' book, this book is the one that I would recommend to any new player wishing to learn the game and step into the low-limit games.

[Ed Miller]

While I would agree that the book COULD stunt the growth of decent players into expert players, I don't think that's the point of his book.

I don't think that's the point either. I certainly don't think that Lee set out and said, "Let's write a book that's going to doom people to play weak-tight poker for eternity." After monitoring the Small Stakes Forum here for several years now, I have come to the conclusion that many players DO get trapped in an unprofitable weak-tight mindset, and quite frankly, I think books like WLLH really have to shoulder a significant amount of the blame. The weak-tight, monsters under the bed stuff really pervades the book (I will give examples in another post so you guys know SPECIFICALLY what's wrong). People learn to play "by the book," but the book is just plain wrong in a lot of spots. That hinders their growth as players.

Until I read your book and I'm very confident it could either replace or stand side by side with Jones' book, this book is the one that I would recommend to any new player wishing to learn the game and step into the low-limit games.

My book is really not intended to compete with or replace WLLH. It is not targetted at the same audience. My book is NOT intended for beginners. Quite frankly, it's intended to fix the mistakes that the WLLH people make. So it's targetted at someone who has read WLLH (or a similar book) and who plays with this weak-tight mindset. It is designed to open up your game and have you really blasting these small games.

Having said that, I think a beginner could read only my book and succeed. But it isn't tailored for beginners. Unfortunately, there is no beginners book that I can really recommend. I too think that WLLH fills an important niche... the FIRST book you read about hold 'em. But WLLH simply gets too many things wrong (not simplified for beginners... just plain wrong) for me to recommend it. I don't really have a replacement to recommend instead, but I just can't endorse a book full of errors. I hope my position on this is clear.

Maybe I'll write a book intended for beginners next. I'm still thinking about what I want to do next.