top pair on a 3 flush flop

20/40 Hold'em


I open for a 3 off the button with KQo (no hearts). The SB, who is an excellant player calls (though he is a little passive, so his smooth call is not a show of tremendous strength as it might be from some others). The BB, a total loose-aggressive fish, also calls. He could have a very wide range of hands.


The flop is Qh 7h 6h. SB checks, BB bets, and I raise, the SB folds, and the BB makes it 3 bets and I call. I have played with the BB for about 4 hours now, and I have seen him make two huge moves: in one, he check-raised on the turn with a paired flop against a preflop raiser (he didn't have trips) and I saw him one other time make it 3 bets on the flop after being raised without having anything close to what he was representing; on both of these instances, he followed through with his bluffs to the river.


The turn is a blank. I honestly don't remember the exact card, but it was irrelevant. The BB bets. At this point, I estimate (only an estimation because he may check the river) that I am getting 14:4 effective odds, or 3.5:1. I call.


The river is Ah. The BB is manifestly upset by that card. He checks and I check behind.


IMO, the preflop raise and flop raise were automatic. I would be interested to hear discussion of my play from that point onwards.


Thanks for comments.


-Dan

"IMO, the preflop raise and flop raise were automatic."


I myself, am finding more and more situations (on the flop) where automatic raises are not all that automatic and I think this might be one. If your opponent flopped a legitimate flush draw, your raise won't necessarily accomplish much. If he's really good and tricky, it might even create further problems. Does it matter whether you charge him to draw or he charges himself? If a heart does fall, you might be glad you didn't raise the flop. Of course, I'm assuming any heart he deems worthy to semi-bluff with. he'll take to the river if he hits.

I think you played it right all the way through.

Kevin,


You're right that nothing is ever automatic. Believe me, I'd be the first person to say that. I was just trying to focus the discussion to the right places (some threads occassoinally get sidelined on bizzarre preflop tangents and the like).


With that said, I really don't like not raising this flop. I'm not really worried about a check-3bet from the SB because it's not his modus operandi (m.o.). If the SB has a hand like pocket tens with the ten of hearts, a raise on the flop could be the difference between winning and losing the pot. A raise on the flop is good against the BB because I am a huge favorite to be ahead, and I think the raise defines my hand pretty well and will make it easier play in most cases.


This is being written after taking a nap after a long poker trip, so I may just be tired and missing the argument for only calling, but it seems to me that a flop raise is definintely in order.


-Dan

Daniel,


For what its worth, I agree w/ your play on the flop, sorry Kevin, and would usually then call a player like this down after the reraise, unless a heart fell. If he bets the heart I probably muck, if he checks, I check...he probably won't fold a better hand than yours for one bet. BTW from the reaction to the river it seems that this guy may have already had a small flush, did he?


Goodluck,


Mike

Nothing to be sorry about. This is where my game has currently fallen into a very grey zone. This flop raise used to be a "given" for me; but I've since been reading and hearing how it's often correct NOT to make this type of raise because either a) You could already be beat, b). If not, you could easily get beat, and c). It might be better to wait for the turn to raise when you're opponent(s) are a bigger underdog.


I've been thinking myself in circles with this lately. The third player in this hand complicates things. If you continue hanging around 2+2 (I hope you do), you'll eventually see a "hand to talk about" by Mason. Many times he'll play a hand "strangely" fiddling around with this concept. Well, that's not exactly right... I'm fiddling, he's USING it. I'm kinda lost with this right now. Guess I gotta do some re-reading...

"If your opponent flopped a legitimate flush draw, your raise won't necessarily accomplish much."


Hmmm. I'd think this is when a raise accomplishes the most. We get to blow out the third guy, or start to get a read on him if he stays, and make the bettor/drawer pay more to draw, and get a read on him too.


Tommy