10-20 JJ Hand

Playing in a loose passive 10-20 game.


Preflop. UTG open raises. He is an average, generally straightforward player. A solid middle position player (MP) cold calls. I have JJ in cutoff and 3-bet, SB caps and all call. SB is a semi-maniac, so he could have any hand here, I'm more concerned about the other two guys.


Flop: 4s 4d 5d


SB checks

UTG bets

MP calls

I raise

All call.


Turn: 4s 4d 5d 8s


SB checks

UTG bets into me

MP calls

What do I do? Raise or fold seems correct. I am not worried about MP because he is solid and probably doesn't have a 4 or 6-7. He probably has KQd or something. SB could have anything, but I watched him carefully on the turn and I don't think he was going for a check-raise with a 4, so he's probably drawing. I am worried about UTG. What hand could he play like this? I don't think he's drawing, I think he probably has an overpair and didn't want to give me a free card, but I'm just not sure.


I decide to raise with the intention of checking down the river. All call.


Results in separate post.


Thanks in advance for any comments.

River: 4s 4d 5d 8s Jc


Wow, what a card. Checked to me, I bet.

SB calls with 77(what a fish -- yikes!).

UTG overcalls with KK, stomps around a bit and then yells for a dinner marker.


Was it obvious that I was facing an overpair to JJs? Well I wasn't really sure so I decided to err on the side of aggression.

It's a little unclear as to what UTG had. You state that he is a solid player, so I agree that having low cards is not a worry. But does he have a high pair AA, KK, QQ or AK, KQ? He didn't try for a check-raise so he either isn't very agressive or he was trying to slow-play. He could have had AKd and also have been trying for the flush draw. He didn't win with a good hand, but your pocket jacks weren't a bad hand either considering your position. It sucks when you lose hands like this, but it happens. Others might disagree, but I like the bet on the River. Unless someone has pocket 4's, you have the NUT hand and there are two other opponents, so more money for you! By overcall, do you mean he raised or did he simply call?

Preflop, I dislike your 3-betting with pocket jacks in the sequence you have outlined. When a straight-forward player raises under the gun he rates to have AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AK, or AQ. Now when a solid player cold-calls him, he will have a similar hand although presumably he would reraise with AA, KK, or QQ. I think the danger of facing an overpair is too high to 3-bet and you should just call.


On the flop, I would not worry about the under the gun player or the solid player having a four in their hand. Are you raising here because you think your hand is good or are you raising because you want to make a bigger overpair fold? The latter won't happen. With UTG leading and the solid player calling it looks to me like you are up against a bigger pocket pair and are therefore playing two outs. Since there is a remote possibility that the bettor has 99 or TT and that the caller has a similar hand, it could be argued that you have a play. Keep in mind that these guys are leading into you despite your 3-betting preflop.


On the turn, you have an easy fold. You have to be playing two outs at this point which is a 23-to-1 shot and the pot odds are not there.


Nice suckout at the river.

Yes, it is obvious you are beat or tied on the turn. Beat has a much higher probability. This is a fold.


I did not like the 3 bet pre-flop. Against the opponents you describe, you should probably wait, and get a better price on a set.


On the turn, UTG is not bluffing or betting a small pair. He knows everyone is calling, and is not afraid of you any longer. There's a reason he's not afraid of your hand. The MP probably has a flush draw, further weakening your situation.


The pot is protected here, very few players bet not pair here, and this guy sounds like he's among those who wouldn't.


Good luck.


Dan Z.

Pre flop:

I agree with your reraise. As a rule in loose games, if there is more than two people in a raised pot at least one of them does not belong and should have to pay. The blinds playing too loosely make it even clearer.


Flop.

A bet from the UTG raiser followed by a call from a solid MP player. I would be feeling nervous. A raise here certainly helps you work out were your are but might be verging on the overaggressive. Still I have made similar over bets before.


Turn:

No good, I wish I had folded on the flop now. I have 12 to 1 on hitting two outs or that my hand might just be good. Maybe a call but I hate it. I think your argument for raising is superficially plausible, but fails because you underestimate the chance that you are beaten.

jim said:

"When a straight-forward player raises under the gun he rates to have AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AK, or AQ"


at 10-20 (and 9-18 and 15-30) this is simply not the case. maybe it is in vegas, but certainly not in LA, and yes i am still talking about ABC, straight forward players. the player could have 99, even 88 sometimes if he feels the conditions are right, AJs, even AJo sometimes, ATs, KQs, and rarely, but every now and then some other hands like JTs, 98s, etc, etc. also, many better players at this level (at least in the games ive encountered) will go for a limp-reraise UTG with AA and sometimes KK if the conditions seem right to them.


the only reason i am saying this is because ive read this UTG raise criteria from you on here many times before and it always strikes me as imprecise, at least when you are talking about 15-30 or lower. i cant speak for the higher levels because i dont play them--maybe this is generally the case at 30-60--?


i think a 3 bet from the cutoff with JJ here preflop is smart. it will probably gain you the button, knock the blinds possible overcards out, and help you to define your hand on future streets so you dont do something awful like throw the best hand away when someone gets tricky with TT or AK (or other hands).

i like your 3 bet preflop. the middle guy would 3 bet AA,KK,QQ. so you have him. clear out the rest of the field. sure UTG might have AAKKQQ. but the times he doesn't makes this play profitable. AKAQAJs991010. and you have position on him and probably willget the button with 3 bet. flop raise good. turn can't fold pots too big. his hand looks like to me qq. but possibly 99 or 1010. i can't believe he didn't 4 bet with kings. raise on turn is ok or call. muck only if you know this player would not lead at you twice without having jj beat. hard to muck in a big pot like this.

"As a rule in loose games, if there is more than two people in a raised pot at least one of them does not belong and should have to pay."


I agree with your rule of thumb, and love the way you stated it. However, I think you should only apply this thinking to pots with the loose players in them, which is not (yet) the case here preflop at the time he reraises.


I still agree with the preflop reraise in this situation as it should buy the button, better define your hand postflop, and allow you to outplay a meek QQ or KK if an overcard flops. This hand is a great example of how this extra bet preflop makes your hand easier to play postflop -- once UTG shows strength a second time by betting the turn after he was raised on the flop, you have enough information to easily lay the jacks down.

preflop:


3-betting is borderline. I personally don't like J-J very much so I wouldn't do it unless I was pretty sure I would get the pot heads up. The problem is that, even if you think you are the mathematical favorite before the flop, JJ (as was seen here) is really hard to play once cards start coming down.


flop:

I don't see any problem with this. You have an overpair, you raise. If you get 3-bet, you worry.


turn:

I don't disagree with your play as much as a lot of the posters. There is a fair chance you are beat, but I would have expected UTG to 3-bet the flop with KK or AA because he knows you don't have a 4, and he would want to shut out MP (especially w/KK) who would then have to call 2 bets. I would fear 8-8. I know that you "shouldn't" raise UTG with it, but people do it all of the time. You described the player as average, and an average player in a 10-20 game does not adhere to strict positional raising standards, imo. By this same standard however, I may be overestimating his willingness to 3-bet AA or KK on the flop. I probably fold here because of the combination of UTG betting and a strong player calling. Even you you are not beat now, there is a good chance that one of the players who is drawing will catch. Continuing is not a huge mistake because of the size of the pot, however.


If you are going to call here I say you have to do exactly what you did. Raise and plan on checking the river. This is where your position really comes in handy. Raising is best because:


-If the turn is 3-bet you can fold. You are beaten, and you lose 2 BB (the same as calling the turn and river).


-If everyone calls and you are beaten, you lose 2BB.


-If you win the hand unimproved, you make the same number of bets as you would have if you had called the whole way.


-If you happen to spike a J, you win 3 additional BB. This is assuming the SB will not fold. If there is a chance he will fold for 2BB, that is another plus to raising.


-If SB and MP are drawing, they call bets here that they would not call on the river. Basically, what you hope to do by raising is take the river bet and make them pay it on the turn.


-The only negative to raising is when SB or MP catches a draw and leads on the river. If you had only called the turn, you would probably fold here, so you lose an extra bet. However, when they don't catch the winner gains both of their bets and they will probably hit their draws less than 50% of the time.


What's interesting about this raise is it increases UTG's EV more than it does yours, because he probably has the best chance of winning the hand. It is still worthwhile though.