23s in the small blind

[BigBiceps]

I have 23s in 1-2 NL in the small blind. There are 5 callers before the action gets to me, so if the BB does not raise then I am getting 10-1 on hitting a big flop.

We see the flop 7 handed which comes 257. It gets checked around on the flop and the turn comes 3 (giving me the worst possible two pair) and puts 2 hearts on the board.

I bet $5 into the $11(after the rake) pot. The action goes fold, fold, raise to $20, fold, call, fold .... what's my action?

<font color="blue"> I folded ... Was this too weak?</font> I figured to be up against both a flush draw and possibly either a bigger two pair or a straight.

Outcome in white below for those who are curious -- not that it should affect the decision making process.

<font color="white"> River came a 2 which would have given me the winner with a full house. I would have got paid off handsomely by the guy with A2(trips, best kicker), the original better had J5h for the flush draw, and he paid off the river bet!</font>

[BigBiceps]

Of course looking at the results it was an easy call. 50% chance to win, and I was getting 4.3-1 on my money.

pokenum -h 2c 3c - jh 5h - ac 2s -- 2d 5s 7h 3h
Holdem Hi: 42 enumerated boards containing 5s 2d 7h 3h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3c 2c 21 50.00 21 50.00 0 0.00 0.500
Jh 5h 16 38.10 26 61.90 0 0.00 0.381
2s Ac 5 11.90 37 88.10 0 0.00 0.119

But if the cards were similar to what I thought ...

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
3c 2c 2 4.76 40 95.24 0 0.00 0.048
Ah Jh 10 23.81 32 76.19 0 0.00 0.238
3s 5c 30 71.43 12 28.57 0 0.00 0.714

I had a 5% chance of winning.

I still don't know if it was a bad fold or not. I actually think this question is alot more interesting than some of the other threads on this board. Additional information: the stack sizes were deep, the original raiser was a fish, and the caller was a semi-solid player.

[umdpoker]

i think this is a very interesting hand. i have trouble playing these blind hands as well. i always seem to lose big, win small, so i seriously don't even complete marginal hands in the sb anymore. please, somebody tell us how to play these!!!!!

[Godfather80]

I agree whole heartedly. Nothing gets me in trouble like marginal hands in the SB and BB when I catch a peice of the flop. I have taken to playing the flops super tight (probably weak as well) if more than 1 or 2 people see the flop for cheap along with me. It's just too hard to know where you stand. Also, I just don't think that cheap marginal hands out of the SB and BB that I fold on the flop to avoid making expensive mistakes will really hurt my overall profitability. I'd much rather take my chances with position than without.

[NaobisDad]

I don't like completing the SB with 23s because I too get myself into a tough situation.

In my opinion you go in with this hand to hit a straight or a flush, both of which are pretty weak. The flush is the lowest imaginable; and if you hit any other straight than a 5 high, you're holding the low end of it. So, that means you're basically drawing to the lowest flush or a gut shot straight if you hit the flop, most of the time.
Of course you'll sometimes hit two piar, full house, set or whatever, but the majority of the times you will be holding a draw out of position on the flop.
That's why I'd lay this down. But I emphasize that it's because I play the above described hands rather poorly that I lay down, not because it's some objective good play.

[Yardbird]

...the pot odds don't justify a call ($15 more into a $36 pot) with limited implied odds if you hit (without the benefit of hindsight) since the likelihood of their simultaneously hitting a 2nd best hand worth a call are lean IMHO.

even if your 23s is hearts, you lose to any other flush draw, and your odds of making the boat are 10:1, while you only beat overpairs, and are vulnerable to trashy straight draws (anyone that loose at the table?) as well as TTP.

That's just my immediate gut feel. I say 'good lay down.' Maybe I'm weak.

[Yardbird]

[ QUOTE ]
Additional information: the stack sizes were deep, the original raiser was a fish, and the caller was a semi-solid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This moderates my initial posting... More implied odds; but they don't strike me as compensating for the short pot-odds up front IMHO---not a hand I would routinely want to get involved in (maybe I'm rock-ish)

[Yardbird]

I think that if you're going to play marginal hands out of the blinds that the question of how to do it can't be answered objectively; you have to consider your reads of your opponents as the primary factor in determining your play... Even so, this particular situation is a weak semi-bluff, and IMHO must be played like a stone cold bluff. Once again not the kind of hand that I'd choose to get involved in.

[BigBiceps]

[ QUOTE ]
...the pot odds don't justify a call ($15 more into a $36 pot) with limited implied odds if you hit (without the benefit of hindsight) since the likelihood of their simultaneously hitting a 2nd best hand worth a call are lean IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is actually $56 in the pot, not $36. 11 + 5 + 20 +20.

I am not so much as worried about implied odds if I hit, as I am worried about drawing nearly dead to either 4, 2, or 0 outs.