Third Rail Comments I Wish I Hadn't Heard

ThorGoT · #1 05-19-2004, 05:54 PM

This hand made me a little sick after the fact (I know, tilt), primarily because of the last comment (too late? or just late enough?). I stopped playing shortly thereafter. On further reflection I felt better. Now I don't know how I feel. Would appreciate comments. Also, was Kibbitzer #2 right (in his read of Valencia, the Villain -- obviously he didn't know what I had)? I'll never know, but I'm curious to know whether people think this is an appropriate lay down.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter

MP2 (Kibbitzer #1) ($35.85)
Hero ($74.69)
CO (Kibbitzer #2) ($14.25)
Button ($51.45)
Valencia ($62.75)
BB ($25)
UTG ($18.70)
UTG+1 ($36.35)
MP1 ($8.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 (Kibbitzer #1) calls $0.50, Hero raises to $1, CO (Kibbitzer #2) folds, Button calls $1, Valencia calls $0.75, BB folds, UTG calls $0.50, MP2 (Kibbitzer #1) calls $0.50.

Flop: ($5.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players) 
Valencia checks, UTG checks, Kibbitzer #1 checks, Hero bets $7, Button folds, Valencia raises to $14, UTG folds, Kibbitzer #1 folds, Hero calls $7.

Turn: ($33.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players) 
Valencia bets $47.75 (All-In).

Kibbitzer #1: "You cannot call."
Kibbitzer #2: "Call."

Hero folds.

Final Pot: $81.25
Main Pot: $33.50, won by Valencia.
Pot 2: $47.75, overbet by Valencia.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Valencia wins $81.25. 

Kibbitzer #1: "He has two pair."

Richie Rich · #2 05-19-2004, 06:49 PM

Since you already had 2 pair with KT, I doubt the villain also had two pair as well (i.e. he wouldn't have called your PF min-raise with T2 or K2). I'd put that person on a spiked set of 2s or 10s before anything else.

Since your PF raise "smelled" like KQs, that's why your "friendly helper" gave you his two cents...trust me, he didn't know.

btw- what are you doing raising (even playing) KTo in NL?!? In the long run, that's a losing hand...

AJo Go All In · #3 05-19-2004, 07:07 PM

you need to turn your chat off if things like this actually affect the way you play. also, i would call. top two pair is a pretty good hand, and most players would try to milk you a little bit with a set.

Richie Rich · #4 05-19-2004, 07:20 PM

Your last sentence is an excellent point. But remember, we're talking about PP/NL25...anything goes.

Considering the pre-flop action, I doubt villain was holding AK or KK (unless he's THAT tricky). What else could you put him on? KQ/KJ? Take into account that he raised our hero's initial bigger-than-pot bet.

ThorGoT · #5 05-19-2004, 09:11 PM

Thanks for the comments -- interesting to see contradictory advice. Kind of rambling thought processes below.

When I bet the pot on the flop, I assume that I was representing at least TPTK, which in this case was presumably KQ (if I had AK I would have bet more before the flop). When I was check-raised, I assumed that my opponent had at least 2 pair (probably didn't have AK, as he would have bet more before the flop), but perhaps not a set -- why not call with a set? In fact, I could see him thinking I had TPTK, and raising with two pair to try to drive me out in case I might hit my kicker. Looking back, I could see him betting 75 cents (from the small blind) with a K2 suited; a KT (T2 seemed unlikely); or TT or 22. I assumed he did not have a KK, since I would have expected a higher bet pre-flop. Because I had a better (or equal) two pair, I called; also, I was hoping I might get the fifth card for a full house.

When a blank came and he went all-in on the turn, I didn't know what to think. Such a large bet suggests he was trying to scare me out (again, because he had top or second two pair, and was afraid my kicker might hit) -- or that he had the nuts, which in this case was (realistically) TT. So there were four hands he might realistically have: 22; TT; KT; K2. 22 beat me, and left me drawing to 4 outs. TT beat me, and left me drawing to 2 outs. KT tied me. K2 I beat. After I folded (and heard "he had two pair"), I assumed he had K2 and felt like an idiot-coward. But in retrospect, I'm not sure it was a bad laydown. It was just so much money for him to bet if he didn't have trips . . .

Prevaricator · #6 05-19-2004, 09:21 PM

Moving all in on the turn for more money than is in the pot is an odd play to make with trips. He could have had QJ and was making a semibluff on the turn, or, more likely, 2 pair like you figured. If he had a set, the only reason to bet so much on the turn is if he put you on QJ. He has TPTK drawing dead with trips, and he can't really be afraid of 4 river outs for top two.

ALL1N · #7 05-20-2004, 02:03 AM

This is a very easy turn call.

schroedy · #8 05-20-2004, 02:16 AM

Hard to say without having a little time at the table with Valencia.

A set of 2's seems most likely, followed by the semi-bluff and then TT. Only an idiot would feel the need to press the miracle KK this hard.

But if Valencia is an idiot, then all the sets are in play.

Of course so are any two other cards in the deck.

coltrane · #9 05-20-2004, 03:23 AM

if he's got a set, the only reason he's playing it so fast is because he might put you on a flush draw....but from the way you bet it, I wouldn't put you on a flush draw....so if he's thinking that same thing and he has a set, I would think he'd milk it more....I gotta think he has KQ or KJ here.....the problem is, if he's scared of the flush, he'll probably play a set and TPTK the same way.....hard to tell from your point of view.....I guess it depends on what you know about this fellow.....but generally speaking, if I have top 2 pair on that board in online Party Poker NL 25, I don't think I'm laying it down.....am I wrong in my thinking here?....I might've re-raised the flop.....calling doesn't make too much sense to me there.....

BlueBear · #10 05-20-2004, 03:35 AM

I wouldn't play KTo here and a min-raise doesn't accomplish much (if anything) preflop. If a hand is a raising hand, I prefer to give substantial raises about the pot size or bigger.

That aside, I hope you were paying close attention at Valencia. As Valencia has a big stack, is he/she riding a lucky streak and playing marginal hands aggressively? Or is Valencia a typical tight and passive player, waiting for the nuts?

My choice of calling the all-in or folding here would depend on the answer of the question above.