Terrorists on the Run

[Gamblor]

Has anybody else noticed that not a single suicide bombing has occured in Israel since the death of Abdel Aziz Rantisi?

[nicky g]

Probably more to do with the wall etc rather than the assassinations. If the assassinations had scared Palestinian militants into submission we wouldn;t have seen the murder of the settler family, for example.

[Chris Alger]

Ever notice how Israel continues to murder civilians even when the suicide bombings stop?

Like the 15 Israel killed today (in addition to the 20 killed the day before) "when Israel Defense Forces helicopter gunships and tanks fired missiles and shells into a crowd of protestors in Rafah refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip. ... Palestinian witnesses said most of those killed were school children." Ha'aretz The article, relying mostly on military sources, doesn't mention any Palestinian violence at all, so we must conclude that Israel shot some 60 non-threatening civilians who's only crime was peaceful protest. This is how Israel persuades the Arab world about America's "good intentions."

Of course, there's Israeli military's convincing version:

"The IDF said in a statement that it had not targeted the crowd; military sources one of the tank shells either passed through a nearby abandoned building or went off course and hit the demonstrators. ... Military sources said that troops had spotted Palestinians [sic] demonstrators, among them armed men, approaching the and asked a helicopter to fire a missile at an open field as a warning. When the crowd continued marching, a tank fired three shells at a nearby abandoned building to ward the protesters off. According to the sources, one of the shells either passed through the building or deviated off course and hit the demonstrators."

So they didn't "target" the crowd, they accidentally hit 60 people with a "warning" missile. The curse of the IDF inevitably cast its pall and bestowed the daily dose of bad luck. Damn.

The Ha'aretz report doesn't ask the obvious question: "warning" of what? The military said it fired four missiles "to "ward protestors off," the obvious implication being that if the peaceful protest didn't stop, Israel would stop it by force. By amazing coincidence, the Israeli military now claims that it did by accident what it was threatening to do deliberately.

These self-contradictory apologetics ("we didn't mean to murder them we only meant to threaten to murder them") are so threadbare that they really amount to inside jokes among the IDF.

Recall that Rafah is where an (American-made) IDF bulldozer killed American protestor Rachel Corrie, clad in an fluroescent orange vest and warning the driver of her presence from about 15 feet with a bullhorn. He "accidentally" ran her down, then "accidentally" failed to lift the shovel while parked on top of her, then "accidentally" backed up over her to make sure the job was done. Rafah is where the IDF "accidentally" shot protestor Tom Hurndall in the head as he tried to rescue small Palestinian children from the Israeli snipers that nailed him instead. He's permanently brain dead. Rafah is where the IDF "accidentally" killed James Miller, British TV cameraman making a documentary about Palestinian children.

As the quote by Prof. Beinin in my post above indicates, "nearly all" of the 3,000+ Palestinians killed by the IDF during the last four years have been civilians. Since the IDF claims it never targets civilians, to accept the IDF version (constantly reiterated on this forum by M, B-Man, Utah, and Gamblor), we must believe that it has killed thousands of people on hundreds of occasions over several years "by accident."

If you consider how America would react if Arafat or Saddam had shot 60 Israeli protestors while trying to colonize Tel Aviv, you'll have a reasonable picture for how depraved this situation and the people that try to justify it have become.

[nicky g]

"Rafah is where the IDF "accidentally" shot protestor Tom Hurndall in the head as he tried to rescue small Palestinian children from the Israeli snipers that nailed him instead. He's permanently brain dead."

After heavy diplomatic pressure , the IDF finally agreed to investigate this killing. Turns out it was deliberate after all and a soldier is up on charge (the fact that they caved in here probably had a lot to do with the fact that the soldier is an ethnic Bedouin). Of course no investigation into thousands of other such deaths, nor indeed into the repeated lies, denials and obstructions into the ivestigation in the first place, nor into the soldier's engagement rules or actions of his commanding officers.

[MMMMMM]

This incident actually concerns me more than the one yesterday.

Yaalon offered an explanation of the incident yesterday which sounded fairly plausible. I am withholding judgment on yesterday's occurrence until more confirmed facts come to light.

Today's occurrence seems less justifiable and the explanation less plausible. I shall await more confirmed information before drawing any final conclusions on either event, however.

[Gamblor]

You must be getting great exercise jumping to all of these conclusions. Under what qualifications are you the judge of who is lying and who is telling the truth?

Nevertheless, I'll humour you:

MK Steinitz, today, in the Knesset:

"Something is definitely wrong, but something is even worse with a Palestinian enemy that skewers its own people in the fighting. The terrorist organizations and the Palestinian administration injure Israeli civilians intentionally using rockets and suicide bombers, and if this operation fails, they will target Israeli civilians using Katyusha rockets, as well.

"Furthermore, they are prepared to place their own people and their children into the eye of the fighting in order that there will be Palestinian civilian casualties.

"I am the last to avoid criticizing the army, sometimes even harshly, but you cannot avoid shooting at armed gunmen just because they are surrounding themselves with innocent civilians. I would even say that placing Israeli soldiers at risk in order to do so would in itself be an illegal order."

"We act just as well as any other army in the same situation would, and we are even more cautious, in these respects.

"(Before labelling the operation) We must remember the left wing labeling of the Jenin fighting as a massacre, which became a blood libel that later on was proven to be fictitious. I would strongly advise everyone to remember who is really instigating war crimes in this region, murdering civilians intentionally and placing their own people in the line of fire, just so that they will be injured and killed for the sake of propaganda."

[Gamblor]

A large procession of several hundreds demonstrators, among them gunmen, organized by the Palestinian Authority, left central Rafah along the main road towards IDF forces in Tel-Sultan.

As the crowd, with the gunmen among them, drew near IDF forces, a warning fire of a single missile was fired from a helicopter into an open area, not towards the demonstrators.

In addition, flares were fired in the air to deter the crowd and to prevent endangering the demonstrators. As this did not deter the crowd and they continued to converge on the troops, machine gun fire was opened towards a wall of an abandoned structure along the side of the road and then four tank shells were fired at this abandoned structure.

It is possible that the causalities were a result of the tank fire on the abandoned structure. The details of the incident continue to be investigated.

It should be mentioned that the scene of the incident is an area of combat and an area of frequent exchanges of fire. The road has been rigged with explosive charges planted by the Palestinians. The IDF has not yet cleared the road of these explosives.

At this stage it is difficult to determine the cause of the civilian casualties. The incident is being investigated thoroughly at this time.

The IDF has approached the Palestinians and offered medical assistance, including the evacuation of the casualties to Israeli hospitals.

[Chris Alger]

[ QUOTE ]
Under what qualifications are you the judge of who is lying and who is telling the truth?

[/ QUOTE ]
Before accusing people of "lying," it's customary to point out some disagreement over the facts.

[ QUOTE ]
"they are prepared to place their own people and their children into the eye of the fighting in order that there will be Palestinian civilian casualties"

[/ QUOTE ]
Israel invades Gaza to destroy homes. Those that live in those homes protest. When Israel kills the protesters, its the protesters' fault for being in "the eye of the fighting." Hardly likely that one could find a better illustration of the blame-the-victim mentality.

You forgot to mention the corollary (although it's in your post above): when Israel sends troops and tanks and apaches and APC's into Gaza to create an "eye of the fighting," it's a victim of "terrorism."

[Gamblor]

Israel invades Gaza to destroy homes.

Wrong. The Israeli army (not Israel) invades Rafiach (not Gaza) to destroy arms-smuggling tunnels (not homes) dug so as to exit in the middle of houses.

Those that live in those homes protest.

As I'm sure I would, if I was being paid handsomely to host smugglers.

When Israel kills the protesters, its the protesters' fault for being in "the eye of the fighting."

It is the protesters' organizers fault for hiding gunmen within the protesters, and encouraging children to act as scouts to search up ahead for soldiers.

[Chris Alger]

"The Israeli army (not Israel) invades Rafiach [hee hee -- and when someone accuses someone in the army of lying you call it calumny against "the Jews"] invades Rafiach (not Gaza) [they came from Israel and proceeded to Rafah -- the majority spelling -- at the Southern tip of Gaza] to destroy arms-smuggling tunnels (not homes) [What a liar. "Israeli forces demolished more than 80 houses last week in what n what the Army said was a search for weapons smuggling tunnels" (NY Times, today). Didn't find any tunnels, though. Since 2000 The IDF has destroyed some 2,000 houses in Gaza and found only 80 tunnels (and another 600 in the W. Bank, where they don't even pretend to be looking for tunnels) . "Arms-smuggling" tunnels? "Clothes, cigarettes, alcohol, vehicle parts and prostitutes have been smuggled through the tunnels for many years." (Ha'aretz, today).]

It is the protesters' organizers fault for hiding gunmen within the protesters, and encouraging children to act as scouts to search up ahead for soldiers.

The IDF doesn't even pretend that it was being fired upon or that it was targeting "gunmen." Once again, you're spinning fantasy in a dsick effort to apologize the murder of children (it now appearing that all those killed were children, although some body parts are still being assembled). "A reporter who was present saw two young men with semi-automatic rifles standing on the sidewalk at the rear of the marchers' route, but did not see any guns or other weapons brandished among hundreds of protesters." NY Times, today.