Comments Anyone

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

Here's a little something I just came across in a book I'm currently reading and thought some of you might want to comment on it.

Best wishes,
Mason

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say you've raised preflop with a big pair against a horde of loose-passive players; now the flop comes with both a middle straight draw and a flush draw to which you have no claim, neither of your pair cards being the right color. What do you do? I often see players jam the pot with their big pair in this situation, or else call raises and reraises to the bitter end; and yet in many cases a fold on the flop is the best paly. It's a clear case of reverse implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

[uuDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say you've raised preflop with a big pair against a horde of loose-passive players; now the flop comes with both a middle straight draw and a flush draw to which you have no claim, neither of your pair cards being the right color.... in many cases a fold on the flop is the best paly.

[/ QUOTE ]

By any chance does this come out of the chapter on how to play weak-tight? I think I have it memorized now....

I'm guessing the author of this book is not Noted Poker Authority Ed Miller.

[blackaces13]

I hope this was a book about getting your boyfriend to marry you or on how to find the best deals on summer skirts and that the poker content was incidental.

[thirddan]

this sounds somewhat Ken Warren-ish...

does the next paragraph begin with face the wall and grab your ankles?

[scalf]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] in dolly's super system limit he authored by bobby baldwin: these are the kinda flops to really out for with big pairs....

so why not ask the current chief exec of bellagio...he might know the answer...

gl

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[Flashy]

Let's hope this book becomes a best seller!

[bernie]

This reminds me of a Roy Cooke column where this happened and he folded the flop to a bet. Im not sure id be doing that. Signifigant action with decent 'raising' standards i could maybe fold it.

Got me curious.

b

[sfer]

You can go one of two strategies here. One, you jam because you know you're spiking your 2-outer on the turn and rivering a board pairing flush card. I love when that happens.

Or you can read pps. 170-172 of HEPFAP.

[MaxPower]

If find someone who plays this way, I will be raising a lot of hands on the flop when the pot is huge.

[Sheriff Fatman]

The problem I see with it is that the author hasn't expanded enough on the point he's trying to make. He's therefore given a very weak-tight general piece of advice when there's a great deal of other information to be considered.

Its a question of interpretation of what he's trying to say. As an extreme example, folding A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in late position on a board of 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] when facing a bet, a raise and a re-raise from 3 calling stations is not what I'd consider to be a bad play.

However, its quite a different decision if you're second to act facing one bet with the same hand and the board is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], which is also a middle straight and a flush draw situation as described.

There's so much more to be considered here which isn't explained in the quote.

Personally I didn't think it was too outrageous a piece of advice when I read it as I pictured situations such as the first example. Others have interpreted it as a general rule. I suppose this justifies the inherent weakness in the quote - its just too ambiguous.

My other thought (and this may be my understanding which is at fault - in which case I await the flames) is that its not an example of reverse implied odds. My recollection of TOP says that these are situations where your actions will either win you a small pot or lose you a huge one. Regardless of what your action is on the flop there's a big pot developing here and the opponents are loose-passive so, by definition, they are going to stay in this hand to the end. Any action you take is therefore unlikely to win you the pot without a showdown and, ultimately, you'll either win or lose a MONSTER pot at the end. Surely that's a different thing altogether?

Sheriff