tourney hands - please comment

DrewOnTilt · #1 05-14-2004, 10:30 PM

Hi all - please comment on the hands below:

Hand 1: I thought I might have the best of it and bet the pot. Got checkraised and folded. How much should I have bet to "test" my hand?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (6 handed) converter

UTG (t1398)
MP (t837)
Hero (t1280)
Button (t2010)
SB (t1280)
BB (t1195)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP folds, Hero raises to t120, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t90.

Flop: (t255) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players) 
BB checks, Hero bets t255, BB raises to t1075 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1585
Main Pot: t765 (t765), won by BB.
Pot 2: t820 (t820), overbet by BB.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. BB wins t1585. 

Hand 2: I have only slightly more than 2BB left, but my stack is not much less than a couple of the other players. Was this push correct, given the earlier call?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed)

UTG (t1403)
Hero (t980)
Button (t1907)
SB (t1655)
BB (t2055)

Preflop: Hero TEHero%%%%%5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t200, Hero raises to t980 (All-In), Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls t780.

Flop: (t2260) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in) 

Turn: (t2260) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in) 

River: (t2260) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in) 

Final Pot: t2260
Main Pot: t2260 (t2260), between UTG and Hero. > Pot won by UTG (t2260).

Results in white below: 
UTG shows 7s 7h (straight, nine high).
Hero shows 5d 5h (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: UTG wins t2260. 

Hand 3: Was SB getting correct odds to call the preflop raise, or is he an idiot that I should add to my buddy list? I suspect the latter...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed)

SB (t685)
BB (t975)
UTG (t560)
UTG+1 (t1090)
MP1 (t2180)
Hero (t580)
MP3 (t1040)
CO (t475)
Button (t415)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t150, MP3 calls t150, CO folds, Button raises to t415 (All-In), SB calls t400, BB folds, Hero calls t265, MP3 calls t265.

Flop: (t1690) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in) 
SB checks, Hero bets t165 (All-In), MP3 calls t165, SB calls t165.

Turn: (t2185) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players, 2 all-in) 
SB checks, MP3 checks.

River: (t2185) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players, 2 all-in) 
SB bets t105 (All-In), MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t2290
Main Pot: t1690 (t1690), between SB, Hero and Button. > Pot won by SB (t1690).
Pot 2: t495 (t495), won by SB.
Pot 3: t105 (t105), overbet by SB.

Results in white below: 
SB shows 6c 6s (three of a kind, sixes).
Hero shows Kd Ac (one pair, kings).
Button shows Jd Qs (high card, king).
Outcome: SB wins t2290.

t_perkin · #2 05-16-2004, 10:51 AM

Hand 1:

The blinds are still tiny. This must a $5/$10 SnG.

I would not have raised PF here. There is no need, just limp.

That way, when it comes to trying to steal this pot it is less expensive.

And this is not results orientated thinking - there are not many situations on the flop that you can be confident with 77. The game is obviously pretty loose so you will get action on the flop if you make trips.
It is too early to even think about trying to steal blinds.

Hand 2:

you say you only have 2BB left - as far as I can see you have nearly 5BB left.

whether the push is correct depends on how things are playing really. If they are really playing away at each other then I would hold on. You can see a fair few more hands yet.

I just played a SnG where with the exception of winning T30 on the first hand I was blinded down to T180 with T150/T300 blinds before I played a hand. I only had to treble up in the SB and then double up and I was back around average stack and I ended up winning. I DON't recommend doing this regularly, but the table was pretty wild and my cards were bad.
When the blinds are big you only need to win couple of blinds and you are back in there with everyone else.

moving in with the 55 is not a terrible play - but if you think you are the best player there then it might be worth wating.

Hand 3:

You know that the SB does not have odds to make the PF call - this is a bad beat post.

Tim

DrewOnTilt · #3 05-16-2004, 01:28 PM

Hand #2 you are correct - it was just under 5BB, typo on my part

Hand #3 is a bad beat post, yes [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] but should I have called the button's allin bet with Big Slick this early in the game?

William Wilson · #4 05-16-2004, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would not have raised PF here. There is no need, just limp.

That way, when it comes to trying to steal this pot it is less expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I understand this. If you raise preflop, won't that give you more authority to steal with a pot-sized bet?

Of course if the guy has a Q, he's not going to fold either way.

Most of the time I try to steal on the flop -- unless it's a rag flop and I'm betting from the BB, or the like -- I do it after a raise. Is this wrong?

t_perkin · #5 05-16-2004, 05:37 PM

77 in this situation I would say fits into the "don't turn a good hand into 72o" as talked about in TPFAP.

Which basically says: don't raise with hands that, if reraised will make you want to throw up.

In fact the book gives EXACTLY this situation:
"It also means strongly considering checking hands in last position which would hate a check raise"

---

In a tight aggressive game a PF raise would be appropriate PF (or folding would be just fine too). You have a good chance of stealing the blinds, and if you get reraised PF you are almost certainly folding to hand that has you beat.

So lets look at the options in the loose game:

First of all you are really looking for a 7 on the flop - without it you are not very likely to be the fav. to win the hand.

You raise PF:
the chance of you stealing these small blinds when the stacks are large is very small and of little value anyway.
When you get a caller you don't really know where you are on the flop most of the time, and a steal attempt is expensive.

If you limp PF:
You have more chance of having more players on the flop (which is just fine). If you don't get a 7 then just check and fold. If you are still last to act and it is checked to you then either go for the steal (which is now cheaper) or just take the free card.

Others might disagree. But I reckon this is right for this particular set of circumstances.

Tim

William Wilson · #6 05-16-2004, 05:59 PM

Just some thoughts to check:

Personally, I wouldn't try to steal with 7s, because I believe the deceptive value of limping and flopping a set is too high, as per Sklansky and TPFAP. I agree on this point, and apologize if this was unclear.

I was asking about the general value of stealing on the flop after a normal-sized PF raise (about 3-4xBB), assuming you have already raised, whether correctly or incorrectly.

You said trying to steal after limping saves money. I disagree with this in general because in my (very limited) experience, it's much more successful to steal with a pot-sized bet on the flop after a raise.

I'm not saying to raise with the intention of stealing on the flop, I'm just saying stealing in an unraised pot hasn't been very successful for me, and was wondering if I was alone in that aspect.

I hope I'm not talking in circles here.

t_perkin · #7 05-16-2004, 10:27 PM

Yes generally it is of course easier to steal a pot on the flop if you were the only raiser PF.

[ QUOTE ]

You said trying to steal after limping saves money. I disagree with this in general because in my (very limited) experience, it's much more successful to steal with a pot-sized bet on the flop after a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must try to avoid thinking about how best to play situations that you should not be in in the first place. It is better just to not be there!

BUT in the situation that you gave I would still go for the free card over the steal MOST of the time with no read on the player.

In order to make the steal (with a pot sized bet) you basically have to be sure that he is going to call or raise around than half the time.
(Sometimes he will call and you will win anyway but on the other hand; general tournament thinking says reduce your variance, so I reckon 50% is about right).

The other thing to avoid is making further bets on the turn and river if you are called. You should do this very rarely, unless you have a read on your player.
(obviously does not apply if you hit your 7!)

Tim

Girazze · #8 05-17-2004, 03:06 AM

Hand 1: Calling would have been the right play for me. I like to see the flop cheap when I have mid pairs. After THAT flop, I fold and it cost me little.

Hand 2: Calling would have been the right play for me again for the reasons stated in Hand 1. Seems you were doomed no matter what you did. Post-flop would have given UTG lots of reasons to stay in no matter what you did since he was looking at improving his pair as well as having the OESD. Gave you lots of reasons to be all-in since you flopped the set. Not sure you could have won this hand.

Hand 3: Bad bad beat.......remember his name and whoop his butt next time.

I'm pretty much a rookie around here but learning a lot. I always leave my posts open for comments.

HajiShirazu · #9 05-17-2004, 06:42 AM

I don't see anything wrong with hand 1. I think you bet too much on the flop though. I suppose you could have limped in with the 77 trying to make a set and trap the blinds or button. My experience in raising is that usually you'll get the blinds here and if not, you can usually take down an even bigger pot on the flop if the blind misses, which they usually do. You can't call the checkraise here but I really doubt you're up against a queen.
You don't have enough chips to try to make a set in hand 2. You could call and steal on any flop checked to you, but that's dangerous as you'll never know when you're beat. Also it is likely someone will raise behind you. So its either raise or fold. I think you can do a little better than 55. Actually if UTG hadn't limped in I would shove in here. But even if UTG is weak and didnt raise he still probably has a playable hand and is likely going to call as he is getting odds to do so. I used to try and pick up that "weak limper money" with steals but then I realized that they were calling me with QTo and 98s.
Hand 3 is just ugly. I think you have to either go all in after you are reraised or fold it. I probably just go all in right there and hope SB calls as I likely have the best hand and at the very least a shot at the side pot. This is a gamble and I hate taking these but I just don't like calling and then having to fold the 2/3 of the time I miss the flop, especially when there is tons of money in the pot and I likely started with the best hand.