10-20 Foxwoods JJ hand

[anduril]

I wouldn't post this unless my opponent were a thinking person. Very passive table. Only 1 player I respect and he happened to be my oppoonent for this hand. I am UTG+1 and open raise with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], MP1 calls, MP2 (thinking player) calls, button calls, SB calls, BB calls. 6 to the flop.

flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

checked to me, I bet, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

turn is Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks, I bet, MP2 raises, folded to me, I...

[rigoletto]

Call down, you are getting 11:1. I don't see him coldcalling with an 8, you have up to 6 outs and you are ahead of AdTd and other semibluff hands.

[DcifrThs]

what i'd do here is so dependent upon the thinker's calling standards against and early raise and one caller. does he do it with big hands, or not so big hands TT, QQ vs. 98s 87s etc. ?? J9s?

further, since he's a thinking player he may have something like Td9d and put you on a possible overcards or maybe a pair that he can get you off of. it really depends what i think he plays in that spot preflop but his actions seem to say big hand unless there's reason to believe he had some respect for the other players and thought they'd fold. but since you say he was the only one you respect, i must conclude that he probably expected one or two of them to call the turn. a T here is unlikely as he'd raise the flop to protect. A8s is a possibility as POSSIBLY J9s is...

of course its possible he's on a semibluff raise with a draw here but since there are two "non-respected" players in the pot he'd probably think one or both of them will call and not allow him to get heads up so therefore he likely has a big hand.

call. and check and fold if unimproved.

of course this analysis doesn't work if he thinks he could eliminate the hord and get you heads up...but since the hord was there he likely wanted a call or two.

-Barron

[anduril]

I agreed with both replies and called the turn raise, a blank came, I check and he thinks a long time and checks behind me. I table, he looks confused and drops his head. MHIG. Maybe I misread his ability.

[anduril]

rigoletto,

is your plan only concerned with pot odds? What if it were 7:1 pot odds and it was already HU? Do you automatically give this hand up to a thinking player? BTW, by thinking I mean he was a decent tight aggressive player who playes pretty straightforward. He had 3-bet with A7s vs a weak tight player and shown me his AJs he folded preflop to an EP raise.

[elysium]

hi and
you've got to call. it's very probable that the MP2 is betting a powerful draw; he might have 9+ outs to the nuts. or a lower pocket pair. fold? you? no. reraising isn't advisable either. call. and unless it gets ugly, call down the river.

[SinCityGuy]

I would have to call down in this situation. These turn raises/checkraises by thinking players are to be expected with some frequency on this type of a board. Of course, he might actually have a made hand, but I take the chance and call him down.

Against a known calling station or weak/tight, this turn raise would be a relatively easy laydown.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
rigoletto,

is your plan only concerned with pot odds? What if it were 7:1 pot odds and it was already HU? Do you automatically give this hand up to a thinking player? BTW, by thinking I mean he was a decent tight aggressive player who playes pretty straightforward. He had 3-bet with A7s vs a weak tight player and shown me his AJs he folded preflop to an EP raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the effective odds of 6:1 for a call down, makes the decision much easier than if the odds where say 3:1 (about twice as easy [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). If it was HU I find it even more likely that he's making a move, so my pot odds doesn't have to be guite so good.

A thinking player doesn't show his hole cards!