Preflop raises in very loose passive games

[ChicagoTroy]

I was reading HFAP's section on playing in loose games, where it talks about avoiding creating the correct mathematical odds for mullets to draw out on you. Since a lot of those odds would be made preflop, does that mean that there is a minium of hands that should be raised preflop? I've observed strong players in very loose (6+ players seeing the flop) raising with nothing except AA or KK.

Comments appreciated.

[Tosh]

I would say that someone who only raises with AA or KK in a very loose passive game is definitely not a strong player.

[ChicagoTroy]

Completely unhelpful response. Doesn't address my question, just my assessment of other players. I wonder at the insecurities of people who go to forums to reply with non-answers to students of a game.

[moondogg]

In a loose aggressive game, if you raise other strong hands (JJ, AQs, etc) you are almost sure to have the best hand at the table before the flop. You opponents are raising crap like K6s. In general, if there are 6 opponents, and you have a better than 1 in 7 chance to win the hand, raise. Obviously you also have to consider your position, how many players you want, yada yada yada... But don't let the mere fact that the table is loose/aggressive slow you down. Your opponents are more apt to call or reraise you with junk hands, so you stand to make more.
That being said, bring A LOT of money with you to the table. 20 big bets won't do it. If you raise PF with other strong hands, your swings will be big. But if you don't you're going to lose money. Think of it this way: if the table is loose and aggressive, it will probably be raised before the flop anyway. Do the raising yourself when you have a strong hand. Don't let your opponents dictate the bets to you based on how much they like their hand.

A lot of people slow down and raise less to minimize their variance. In the end, the win small pots, lose bigger pots, and get pushed off their hand too much. If don't have the bankroll or stomach to play a game aggressively, don't play it. It doesn't make you a bad player. If the game is not for you, playing in it makes you a bad player.

[ChicagoTroy]

Thanks for the feedback. How would you adjust the advice for a loose passive game? That is the situation I find myself in more often lately. People won't fold, they chase backdoor flushes or runner runner draws. HFAP mentions not creating the odds for them to draw, so I'm looking for info about how that affects preflop raising.

[Tosh]

They'll call you with crap. Take advantage of that by raising with decent hands that figure to be better than their average hand.

[moondogg]

I think it was Ed Miller who pointed out that the loose game section in HPFAP addresses a typical loose mid-limit game. Basically a tough game that has a few loose players in it. This is much different than a low limit loose-passive game, where you have 6 people to a flop and they call you down with second pair.

Granted, sometimes you are going to create the odds for someone to draw. They are profiting off of all of the other people who are calling incorrectly. However, when 3 or 4 other people have absolutely no place being in the hand, you CAN'T afford NOT to raise. The others are getting the odds no matter what you do. HPFAP is showing you how to tweak the odds to get a better profit. But in low limit games, the number loose calls from the really bad players far outweigh the few other people with a clue who may or may not be making a mistake by calling, depending on your raise.

It's all about using the right tool for the job. The HPFAP Loose Game section describes how to dissect a relatively tough but somewhat loose game using a scalpel. In LL games, against people who can't defend themselves, use the machete, and keep raising their asses.

In Rounders they said that you can't lose what you don't put in the middle. In loose passive games, you can't win what you don't make your opponents put in the middle.

[ChicagoTroy]

Interesting, thanks guys. I'll reread the section and test it out on the lower limit PP mullets.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Completely unhelpful response. Doesn't address my question, just my assessment of other players. I wonder at the insecurities of people who go to forums to reply with non-answers to students of a game.

[/ QUOTE ]

1-You asked for comments - he gave you a comment on your post.

2-His post actually was helpful. Your premise/question is whether to raise fewer hands when playing against loose players. Your anecdotal evidence is your observation of "good players". If these "good players" in fact aren't "good", then their preflop strategy becomes less useful.

3-There are lots of worse responses than his around here that are helpful.

4-Your loose opponents play crap, and play like crap - you can raise with lots of hands.