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  #1  
Old 04-29-2004, 01:46 PM
pheasant tail (no 18) pheasant tail (no 18) is offline
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Default Why take the lead in EP w/ a draw?

It seems as though its almost automatic for everyone here (and many that I face on the table) to Check/Raise on the flop w/ a draw to the nut (sometimes non-nut) flush or OESD when in EP.

If the field is big enough, I can see how it is a value bet and that you want more money going into the pot. For that reason I usually bet out when I think there will be enough callers and often am glad when it's raised behind me (especially w/ a few callers in between me and raiser). It seems as though posters do it to take the lead more than to build the pot. AM I RIGHT ABOUT THIS? (The cases I have in mind are not reasonable semi-bluff opportunities as there is little chance everyone will fold.)

If so, why would you want the lead out of position w/o a made hand?

If someone could either explain or point me to a thread that would, I would appreciate it.

PT
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  #2  
Old 04-29-2004, 05:16 PM
J.R. J.R. is offline
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Default Re: Why take the lead in EP w/ a draw?

If so, why would you want the lead out of position w/o a made hand?

If you are talking about leading on the flop with a draw, it may be for meta-game deception purposes (even assuming no semi-bluffing possibilities). People won't be able to put you on a hand when you lead on the flop if you mix things up. It may also let you get a feel for where you stand in the hand (ie are your overcards also good?)

Also, generally speaking, when you are in a spot where there is little chance of a semi-bluff working, it is often becuase you have a number of opponents, so in that case you are begining to delve into value betting teritory.

If there are not a lot of opponents, there is usually some semi-bluff equity in a flop bet, and if not on the flop than to set up the second barrel on the turn or river if the board blanks out.

It seems as though its almost automatic for everyone here (and many that I face on the table) to Check/Raise on the flop w/ a draw to the nut (sometimes non-nut) flush or OESD when in EP.

I hadn't noticed this phenomenon here but the check-raise with a draw is usually:
1) a value check-raise when there are lots of callers or
2) done to clean up outs when you have a draw and overcards and a decent sized field and/or large pot.
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  #3  
Old 04-29-2004, 05:34 PM
tolbiny tolbiny is offline
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Posts: 52
Default Re: Why take the lead in EP w/ a draw?

One more possibilitiy-
you can check raise the turn effectively the times the turn hits your draw
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  #4  
Old 04-29-2004, 06:09 PM
James Boston James Boston is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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Posts: 314
Default Re: Why take the lead in EP w/ a draw?

I generally don't like to check-raise a draw. My favorite reason for raising a draw is to try for a free card, but being in EP pretty much eliminates this benefit. I do like to bet out with a draw if I'm first to enter the pot. I find that most low-limit players will call a raise, with one bet already in the pot, quicker than they will call a single bet. So as a semi-bluff, I think you have a greater chance of getting people to fold if you come out firing. Still, if you want a value bet, you only need about 3 or 4 callers to make the play correct.
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