i direct the money.....

...but not into my stack.


i'm starting to think the loose-passive players love me in their games.


if i wasn't there, they'd check and call eachother down and see who ended up with the best hand, they'd have a nice laugh and someone would win a tiny pot. no thrills, no real "gambling". the money would just sort of flow evenly around the table as the rake slowly drained it away.


but then i sit down. when i'm in the pot, i'm usally raising, creating large pots, trying like hell to protect my hands.


on any given hand, 5 of them hate it, because i'm making them put more money in the pot where they want to just call one bet, but usually, theres that last one, the loose end that hangs you, the last player that loves me for doing all that raising.


i'm in MP and raise 4 limpers with AKs, 2 behind me cold call, both blinds stay.


flop comes A K 3 rainbow


EP bets, i raise, everyone calls, probably trying to hit a gutshot, or pickup a backdoor flush draw or even straight draw. and even 3X will hand around and try for a 2 outer to another 3.


turn 9 two hearts on board.


checked to again, i bet, everyone calls except SB.


river 3h, completing backdoor hearts and pairing the board.


checked to me, i check, one of the coldcallers bets, 5 people(!), including me, call and showdown.


A has a backdoor flush J-high, B has Q3o for trips, C has A7o, D (guy who bet into me on flop)has pocket K's for a fullhouse and takes it down.


"i thought you had pocket Aces" then he actually thanked for making the pot so big as it was pushed to him in two huge piles.


"yeah, don't mention it," was all i could muster.


never have any idea where i am with these guys. "call, call, call, call, call", no information gained, even when i'm way behind with a strong hand i have no idea and keep giving my money away.


i channel huge pots to whoever's in with me and flops a solid hand, or who draws out, sometimes i win these pots, but more often that not i get a pat on the back from the old dude next to me, "thanks son, you're my good luck charm."


one time an old lady actually handed me a dollar chip for "good luck" after she raked a huge pot after flopping a set on a hand where i too flopped a set smaller than hers. she check called whole way, with me betting/raising the other players. thanks lady, this'll help stop the bleeding.


yeah they really love me, i make it exciting for them. i'm glad they're all having such a good time.

The board is: A,K,3,9,3 (with three hearts)


River action: checked to me, i check, one of the coldcallers bets, 5 people(!), including me, call and showdown.


Did you consider folding on the river?


It's hard to follow the river action precisely. But, if you checked, someone bet, four others called the river bet, and then the action gets to you, a fold is something that must be considered. Even if there were only three (two?) callers ahead of you, you should consider folding.


What are four others calling a river bet with considering that you hold both an Ace and a King? If just one of them holds a 3 or has two hearts, then you are just paying off here.


I'm not saying calling one bet on the river is a mistake. But, it is a significant mistake if you are not considering the option of folding.


I would almost certainly call here as well. Of coruse, I would also have bet the river.

First off I recommend playing a bit higher limits, even if you don't have much of a bankroll to speak of. Those types of games are just too frustrating, period, despite a huge potential for profit; the swings are just too big. Plus in live casinos the rake takes a much higher percentage of the pot at the lower limitsBottom of Form 1

and tokes are also a higher % of the pot. If you don't have much money to invest in poker at the moment play online, bottom limit live casino poker is a sucker's game.


A fold was in order on the river in that hand. A big leak for a lot of LL players is river overcalls. You are beat here, lay it down. Next time you're at a table like that, keep mental track of how many times you win on the river by overcalling (intentionally calling instead of raising to induce other overcalls doesn't count). It wont be more than 5%, if that - if you were winning you'd be the one betting or raising, not the one calling. Its analogous to someone betting into 5 opponents on the river with KK when an ace flopped.

Ah the fun of low limit poker. I play a lot of 4-8 and I am still get surprised when I showdown a sure winner and someone has been check/calling with an even better hand. A few weeks back I have KQ in an unraised pot. Flop is KK7. I bet and one guy calls. Turn is 9. Check, I bet he calls. River is a 2. Check, I bet he calls. I proudly turn over KQ not imagining I lose. He shows AK for the win [img]/images/frown.gif[/img]


But the key is these types of players will check/call with 2nd best more often then with best so you can still make money off of them.


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@hotmail.com

Often helps disguise my hand, where I can appear like a calling station when I'm way ahead. The guy with KK may have been doing this before the flop and after: letting you and the others bet his hand for him. Then, at the end you all got rope-a-doped into paying the 2nd nut hand off.


Say I'm in EP with AA in a wild game - why raise when I know the pot will likely be capped? As for the rest of your play, well, ya got beat. Happens.


Like the others said, given the action at the river you need to consider mucking here - too many hands beat you. The fact that you were likely ahead before then means nothing, except to the quiet guy who flopped second set, and he may have put you on AA.


Wild games require supreme self-control and a hefty bankroll, but can be a no-brainer way to make a living.

1 idea is to wait for the turn to raise/bet. hopefully making it 2 bets for anyone to call. p170 i believe in HPFAP. can work well in these types of games...if your 3 bet here, you can usually lay it down. id reread the loose games section. itll give ya some ideas on how to both save chips, AND charge alot.


you actually saved chips on this hand, especially the way the KK played the turn.


small consolation though i know...but i love these tables cause i can draw cheap and charge em to draw. and when your hands start holding up...and they will eventually...youll have huge stacks in front of ya.


better luck next time..


b

> ...but not into my stack.


> i'm starting to think the loose-passive >players love me in their games.


I'll tell you why in a minute.


> if i wasn't there, they'd check and call >eachother down and see who ended up with the best >hand, they'd have a nice laugh and someone

> would win a tiny pot. no thrills, no real >"gambling". the money would just sort of flow >evenly around the table as the rake slowly >drained

> it away.


This is a fact. It's not poker what they do.


> but then i sit down. when i'm in the pot, i'm >usally raising, creating large pots, trying like >hell to protect my hands.


Often you cannot protect your hand properly on the flop in these games.


> on any given hand, 5 of them hate it, because >i'm making them put more money in the pot where >they want to just call one bet, but

> usually, theres that last one, the loose end >that hangs you, the last player that loves me for >doing all that raising.


> i'm in MP and raise 4 limpers with AKs, 2 >behind me cold call, both blinds stay.


Good.


> flop comes A K 3 rainbow


> EP bets, i raise, everyone calls, probably >trying to hit a gutshot, or pickup a backdoor >flush draw or even straight draw. and even 3X >will

> hand around and try for a 2 outer to another >3.


Ok, your raise will not knock out players on the flop, right? You know this but you deny it by raising on the flop. The fact is, you can call and see the turn. If the turn card is one you like then raise there. If not you can check-call or even just fold. If that KK guy bets into you on the turn and you raise, will the lone 3 stick around? You want him to stick around now! On the flop, though, he's correct or close to correct to cold-call your raise!


If you start playing this way, you will probably hate it at first. I agree that this is not poker. But it's the game you're in and you should choose an optimal strategy for the game you're in.


I find the automatic impulse to raise my apparent monsters difficult to resist sometimes. Especially when it looks like you should be able knock sane players out of the pot like you were probably thinking with this hand. But you should still add this play to your arsenal and force yourself to use it!


> turn 9 two hearts on board.


> checked to again, i bet, everyone calls >except SB.


See, now if you had smooth-called the flop and raised the turn, you screw up the pot odds for the flush draw. You also very well define your own hand and can play with very good accuracy on the river. The accuracy issue is a very important thing about these games that probably most players don't think about. Most players imagine that their hand 'should' win and make some unfortunate bets and crying calls. I think that this is an unskilled way to approach a loose game.


If you can play against loose players as if you knew exactly what they held it may stop bothering you the way they play. When you get sucked out on it will often cost you less than you might expect. And again, If it's in plain sight that you put in the majority of your money with the best of it and you are losing repeatedly then things must turn around! And losing will bother you less. If, however, you are finding that you're often dumping 2+ bets *after* you have already been sucked out on then you should reexamine your game and now have good reason to feel bad about what is happening.


> river 3h, completing backdoor hearts and >pairing the board.


It's too bad. Now, if you had been able to raise the turn you could check-fold the river for the first bet here knowing that you are beat. So your way, you are spending 3 bets postflop and end up with a crying call. My way, you are spending 2.5 (3.5 if you like the river) bets postflop, have knocked out some people and gained significant pot equity, and know precisely where you are on the river.


> checked to me, i check, one of the >coldcallers bets, 5 people(!), including me, call >and showdown.


I think you need trips or maybe a flush to be the first overcall here. To be like the 3rd or 4th overcall? I'd need a full house.


> A has a backdoor flush J-high, B has Q3o for >trips, C has A7o, D (guy who bet into me on >flop)has pocket K's for a fullhouse and takes

> it down.


If you can raise the turn you will probably dump the Q3 and A7. Now A7 is drawing dead to your hand but Q3 you should like to drop or have him call his 2 outer at an exorbitant price on the turn. And maybe the A7 is a total fool who has never dumped top pair in his life and you get a good bonus from his call. You'd also like to charge the J-high flush draw a double bet on the turn for a 4-1 shot. Any gutshots to broadway which could easily have been out there will also normally drop for a double bet on the turn or are almost certainly incorrect to call a double sized bet.


There's nothing you can do about KK of course. Your real piece of misfortune is that someone had KK when you had AK. But this is usually very unlikely.


> "i thought you had pocket Aces" then he >actually thanked for making the pot so big as it >was pushed to him in two huge piles.


Well, he's likely an idiot.


> "yeah, don't mention it," was all i could >muster.


> never have any idea where i am with these >guys. "call, call, call, call, call", no >information gained, even when i'm way behind with >a

> strong hand i have no idea and keep giving my >money away.


You don't want information, just people calling double sized bets with garbage.


> i channel huge pots to whoever's in with me >and flops a solid hand, or who draws out, >sometimes i win these pots, but more often that

> not i get a pat on the back from the old dude >next to me, "thanks son, you're my good luck >charm."


And this is where they have you. It gets to my ego when people do things like this. And it's hard to play without the ego.


> one time an old lady actually handed me a >dollar chip for "good luck" after she raked a >huge pot after flopping a set on a hand where i >too

> flopped a set smaller than hers. she check >called whole way, with me betting/raising the >other players. thanks lady, this'll help stop the

> bleeding.


You don't need her sympathy. But take the dollar!


> yeah they really love me, i make it exciting >for them. i'm glad they're all having such a good >time.


They probably enjoy calling your flop raises, it's true. You should see what they think when you do it to them on the turn. Or what they think when the turn card looks scary and you are paying them off the minimum, but gaining the max when your hand is good.

Stop trying to steal my big blind when we're playing Poki!


Q7 or better? I reraise *you*!